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And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first. Their views

And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first. Their views are usually pretty reasonable.

mootothemax 15y ago
Their views are usually pretty reasonable You make it sound as if feminists are some kind of weird cult ;) But your basic point is true: just because a woman is a feminist doesn't mean that she thinks all penetrative sex is rape, such as Dworkin believed.
- rimantas 15y ago
  You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee is perceived as an atempt to rape.
  - jat850 15y ago
    We're not at all, really, and that type of hyperbole is extremely unproductive.
  - owenmarshall 15y ago
    "Asking a girl out for a cup of coffee" isn't perceived as an attempt to rape. Flirting with a woman in an environment where they feel uncomfortable -- say, oh, for example, early in the morning in a confined space -- isn't perceived as an attempt to rape, but it does make the flirter an insensitive jerk at best.
  - mootothemax 15y ago
    You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee is perceived as an atempt to rape. Honestly, if that is a regular problem for you, I would suggest you work on your interpersonal skills.
  - diolpah 15y ago
    We are not 'near' that point. The Rebecca Watson incident clearly demonstrates that we are already there.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      1. Woman does a presentation where she talks about objectification of women in a male dominated social group. 2. Woman gets hit on in an elevator in a foreign country after leaving a bar at 4am. She declines. 3. Woman mentions incident as a "What Not To Wear" style off-hand comment in a video blog about the conference, before going on to more important things. 4. Richard Dawkins flips his shit. 5. Some men think this situation means politely asking a woman out for coffee will get you accused of rape.
    - owenmarshall 15y ago
      Seriously? RW said that being hit on in an elevator @ 4AM made her feel uncomfortable. That's it, and if people were able to muster up a shred of empathy and think "gee, if this makes people feel uncomfortable, I shouldn't do it", elevatorgate wouldn't have happened. Instead, men came out of the woodwork left and right trying to defend their right to flirt on women in any situation, irrelevant of how it might make the woman feel.
- Joeboy 15y ago
  In the interest of fairness it should probably be pointed out that Dworkin rejected that interpretation of her work.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    As much as I disagree (strongly, at points) with a lot of Dworkin's work, she really has become a sort of punching bag for anti-feminism. She isn't nearly the caricature that her detractors make her out to be.
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  - mootothemax 15y ago
    In the interest of fairness it should probably be pointed out that Dworkin rejected that interpretation of her work. Which is fair enough. At the same time, she did write things like: Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women Or: A human being has a body that is inviolate; and when it is violated, it is abused. A woman has a body that is penetrated in intercourse: permeable, its corporeal solidness a lie. The discourse of male truth--literature, science, philosophy, pornography--calls that penetration violation. This it does with some consistency and some confidence. Violation is a synonym for intercourse. At the same time, the penetration is taken to be a use, not an abuse; a normal use; it is appropriate to enter her, to push into ("violate") the boundaries of her body. Personally I think she was backpeddling, but please have a read of what she wrote: http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/dworkin.html http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/dworkin.html
king_jester 15y ago
Getting to know one? Why not be one?
- cosgroveb 15y ago
  Sure. I consider myself a feminist insofar as I believe all people should be treated equally, with respect and dignity.

And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first. Their views are usually pretty reasonable.

mootothemax 15y ago

Their views are usually pretty reasonable You make it sound as if feminists are some kind of weird cult ;) But your basic point is true: just because a woman is a feminist doesn't mean that she thinks all penetrative sex is rape, such as Dworkin believed.

rimantas 15y ago
You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee is perceived as an atempt to rape.
- jat850 15y ago
  We're not at all, really, and that type of hyperbole is extremely unproductive.
- owenmarshall 15y ago
  "Asking a girl out for a cup of coffee" isn't perceived as an attempt to rape. Flirting with a woman in an environment where they feel uncomfortable -- say, oh, for example, early in the morning in a confined space -- isn't perceived as an attempt to rape, but it does make the flirter an insensitive jerk at best.
- mootothemax 15y ago
  You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee is perceived as an atempt to rape. Honestly, if that is a regular problem for you, I would suggest you work on your interpersonal skills.
- diolpah 15y ago
  We are not 'near' that point. The Rebecca Watson incident clearly demonstrates that we are already there.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    1. Woman does a presentation where she talks about objectification of women in a male dominated social group. 2. Woman gets hit on in an elevator in a foreign country after leaving a bar at 4am. She declines. 3. Woman mentions incident as a "What Not To Wear" style off-hand comment in a video blog about the conference, before going on to more important things. 4. Richard Dawkins flips his shit. 5. Some men think this situation means politely asking a woman out for coffee will get you accused of rape.
  - owenmarshall 15y ago
    Seriously? RW said that being hit on in an elevator @ 4AM made her feel uncomfortable. That's it, and if people were able to muster up a shred of empathy and think "gee, if this makes people feel uncomfortable, I shouldn't do it", elevatorgate wouldn't have happened. Instead, men came out of the woodwork left and right trying to defend their right to flirt on women in any situation, irrelevant of how it might make the woman feel.
Joeboy 15y ago
In the interest of fairness it should probably be pointed out that Dworkin rejected that interpretation of her work.
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  As much as I disagree (strongly, at points) with a lot of Dworkin's work, she really has become a sort of punching bag for anti-feminism. She isn't nearly the caricature that her detractors make her out to be.
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- mootothemax 15y ago
  In the interest of fairness it should probably be pointed out that Dworkin rejected that interpretation of her work. Which is fair enough. At the same time, she did write things like: Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women Or: A human being has a body that is inviolate; and when it is violated, it is abused. A woman has a body that is penetrated in intercourse: permeable, its corporeal solidness a lie. The discourse of male truth--literature, science, philosophy, pornography--calls that penetration violation. This it does with some consistency and some confidence. Violation is a synonym for intercourse. At the same time, the penetration is taken to be a use, not an abuse; a normal use; it is appropriate to enter her, to push into ("violate") the boundaries of her body. Personally I think she was backpeddling, but please have a read of what she wrote: http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/dworkin.html http://feastofhateandfear.com/archives/dworkin.html

king_jester 15y ago

Getting to know one? Why not be one?

cosgroveb 15y ago
Sure. I consider myself a feminist insofar as I believe all people should be treated equally, with respect and dignity.