6 ms·

Why do we let the same tired discussion about gender pervade HN once per week?

by hack_edu 15y ago

michaelchisari 15y ago
Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the rug.
- alex_c 15y ago
  Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions But you are arguing against the discussion, no? Instead of using this article (as much as you may feel it lacks substance) as an opportunity to discuss the problem further, and propose solutions or suggestions... Instead, you label it a circle jerk. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you haven't done much to change that.
    - alex_c 15y ago
      No, I haven't - because I still see nothing of substance in the article, and past experience gives me little faith that the discussion is going anywhere interesting. I don't see what I - or anyone - can contribute beyond "Sexism is bad, don't do it!". I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, I've said my piece, I see no reason to clutter up the thread with more meta discussion from me.
      - gatlin 15y ago
        The most worrying thing to me is that despite the frequent discussions on HN, there are people in this thread who would rather assume that there is no problem, and this is just the way things are. Until blatant ignorance and misconceptions like this are dispelled, we need to have more discussions. Disclaimer: I'm male, studying STEM education and the gender gap.
    - Goladus 15y ago
      This post isn't starting discussion it's just whining about unfounded generalities and cherry-picking jokes like G-boobs-le which is not offensive and any so-called feminist who gets worked up about it should re-think her priorities. The only remotely new point is the comment about Asperger's not being an excuse for sexist behavior. So yes, the article lacks substance. There's essentially none. If I want to have a discussion about the role of women in IT and web development, this particular post is a horrible starting point. Resulting discussion will almost certainly be ill-informed and a complete waste of my time. Given the amount of work I would have to do to drag the discussion into productivity, I am better off writing my own blog.
  - sequoia 15y ago
    "circle jerk" eh???? tsk tsk. typical. (just kidding! :p) EDIT: it is a serious issue/question, tho, in my opinion, that bears discussing. So we're "not finding solutions." Does that mean we should a) forget about it, it's unsolvable/not a problem or b) Keep discussing it until we are coming up with solutions? Another important point is context. Is it OK to make a joke about women in the kitchen with your female BFF? Sure, if she's OK with it and knows you're joking. Is it OK to make the same joke in a public/professional forum? Pretty much always "no." Just because your black friend "thinks your joke is hilarious" doesn't mean you should whip it out at an industry conference.
    - chc 15y ago
      If you are struck with a revelation that hasn't had its rehashes rehashed, write it up and submit that. Please don't post crap articles just because you feel the topic is important. Fighting breast cancer is important, but I wouldn't submit somebody's tweet saying "i oppose breast cancer, cuz i like boobs lol." It does not move the issue forward at all. If anything, spamming an issue makes people wary of it as they perceive somebody has an axe to grind. To give a positive example, I loved Jolie O'Dell's article on this topic. Rather than the usual samey tirade, it was smart and different and enlightening. I felt like I was in a different place after reading it. If you find an article like that, please submit it. But don't submit articles just because they're on the same topic.
  - jackpirate 15y ago
    Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.
    - sequoia 15y ago
      "A small group of gentlemen working separately to achieve a common goal"
    - xnxn 15y ago
      Perhaps "groupthink"?
    - alex_c 15y ago
      I've been spending too much time on Reddit - I used the phrase without a second thought.
- hack_edu 15y ago
  Very true. Nothing but sweeping happens here. It would be nice, but no convincing would change the reality of discussion here; that's sad.
paulgb 15y ago
Because it remains unresolved and is one of the biggest social problems faced by the industry that 90% of HN readers are (or aspire to be) in.
- peterwwillis 15y ago
  How is this a problem not faced by any other industry in the world? I have never seen evidence that shows that IT industry people are any more sexist than people in any other field. So someone goes to a conference and there was a slide with something inappropriate on it. That means one asshole was immature and unprofessional enough to publicly shoot himself in the foot. It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. They're just smart enough not to be sexist in the middle of their speech.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago
      Very often, people push the hypothesis that women avoid the software industry because of sexist behavior. (This particular article did not, but many similar articles in this genre do.) If IT is no more sexist than any other field (as peterwwillis hypothesized), this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism.
      - michaelchisari 15y ago
        this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism. No, it wouldn't refute anything. For instance, in the medical field, we've had a hundred years to correct the gender imbalance, and people have fought hard, both in education and in hiring practices, to get it where it is. So, while the medical field may have as many sexist jerks, there have been failsafes put into place to correct for their behavior. IT has no such procedures. So we can either change our culture to be less sexist than other fields, or we can put in those hiring and education procedures. And to be honest, I don't consider it much of a reason to pat ourselves on the back if we're less sexist than, say, the financial industry. This is our house, let's clean it.

Why do we let the same tired discussion about gender pervade HN once per week?

michaelchisari 15y ago

Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the rug.

alex_c 15y ago
Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions But you are arguing against the discussion, no? Instead of using this article (as much as you may feel it lacks substance) as an opportunity to discuss the problem further, and propose solutions or suggestions... Instead, you label it a circle jerk. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you haven't done much to change that.
  - alex_c 15y ago
    No, I haven't - because I still see nothing of substance in the article, and past experience gives me little faith that the discussion is going anywhere interesting. I don't see what I - or anyone - can contribute beyond "Sexism is bad, don't do it!". I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, I've said my piece, I see no reason to clutter up the thread with more meta discussion from me.
    - gatlin 15y ago
      The most worrying thing to me is that despite the frequent discussions on HN, there are people in this thread who would rather assume that there is no problem, and this is just the way things are. Until blatant ignorance and misconceptions like this are dispelled, we need to have more discussions. Disclaimer: I'm male, studying STEM education and the gender gap.
  - Goladus 15y ago
    This post isn't starting discussion it's just whining about unfounded generalities and cherry-picking jokes like G-boobs-le which is not offensive and any so-called feminist who gets worked up about it should re-think her priorities. The only remotely new point is the comment about Asperger's not being an excuse for sexist behavior. So yes, the article lacks substance. There's essentially none. If I want to have a discussion about the role of women in IT and web development, this particular post is a horrible starting point. Resulting discussion will almost certainly be ill-informed and a complete waste of my time. Given the amount of work I would have to do to drag the discussion into productivity, I am better off writing my own blog.
- sequoia 15y ago
  "circle jerk" eh???? tsk tsk. typical. (just kidding! :p) EDIT: it is a serious issue/question, tho, in my opinion, that bears discussing. So we're "not finding solutions." Does that mean we should a) forget about it, it's unsolvable/not a problem or b) Keep discussing it until we are coming up with solutions? Another important point is context. Is it OK to make a joke about women in the kitchen with your female BFF? Sure, if she's OK with it and knows you're joking. Is it OK to make the same joke in a public/professional forum? Pretty much always "no." Just because your black friend "thinks your joke is hilarious" doesn't mean you should whip it out at an industry conference.
  - chc 15y ago
    If you are struck with a revelation that hasn't had its rehashes rehashed, write it up and submit that. Please don't post crap articles just because you feel the topic is important. Fighting breast cancer is important, but I wouldn't submit somebody's tweet saying "i oppose breast cancer, cuz i like boobs lol." It does not move the issue forward at all. If anything, spamming an issue makes people wary of it as they perceive somebody has an axe to grind. To give a positive example, I loved Jolie O'Dell's article on this topic. Rather than the usual samey tirade, it was smart and different and enlightening. I felt like I was in a different place after reading it. If you find an article like that, please submit it. But don't submit articles just because they're on the same topic.
- jackpirate 15y ago
  Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.
  - sequoia 15y ago
    "A small group of gentlemen working separately to achieve a common goal"
  - xnxn 15y ago
    Perhaps "groupthink"?
  - alex_c 15y ago
    I've been spending too much time on Reddit - I used the phrase without a second thought.
hack_edu 15y ago
Very true. Nothing but sweeping happens here. It would be nice, but no convincing would change the reality of discussion here; that's sad.

paulgb 15y ago

Because it remains unresolved and is one of the biggest social problems faced by the industry that 90% of HN readers are (or aspire to be) in.

peterwwillis 15y ago
How is this a problem not faced by any other industry in the world? I have never seen evidence that shows that IT industry people are any more sexist than people in any other field. So someone goes to a conference and there was a slide with something inappropriate on it. That means one asshole was immature and unprofessional enough to publicly shoot himself in the foot. It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. They're just smart enough not to be sexist in the middle of their speech.
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    Very often, people push the hypothesis that women avoid the software industry because of sexist behavior. (This particular article did not, but many similar articles in this genre do.) If IT is no more sexist than any other field (as peterwwillis hypothesized), this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism. No, it wouldn't refute anything. For instance, in the medical field, we've had a hundred years to correct the gender imbalance, and people have fought hard, both in education and in hiring practices, to get it where it is. So, while the medical field may have as many sexist jerks, there have been failsafes put into place to correct for their behavior. IT has no such procedures. So we can either change our culture to be less sexist than other fields, or we can put in those hiring and education procedures. And to be honest, I don't consider it much of a reason to pat ourselves on the back if we're less sexist than, say, the financial industry. This is our house, let's clean it.