9 ms·

Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

63 points by benwerd 15y ago

code_duck 15y ago
Who is "we"? Oh, that's right - the sexist creeps who apparently make up the software industry he's referring to. You encounter this anywhere dominated by one sex or the other. It's not at all unique to the software industry.
hack_edu 15y ago
Why do we let the same tired discussion about gender pervade HN once per week?
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the rug.
  - alex_c 15y ago
    Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions But you are arguing against the discussion, no? Instead of using this article (as much as you may feel it lacks substance) as an opportunity to discuss the problem further, and propose solutions or suggestions... Instead, you label it a circle jerk. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you haven't done much to change that.
      - alex_c 15y ago
        No, I haven't - because I still see nothing of substance in the article, and past experience gives me little faith that the discussion is going anywhere interesting. I don't see what I - or anyone - can contribute beyond "Sexism is bad, don't do it!". I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, I've said my piece, I see no reason to clutter up the thread with more meta discussion from me.
        gatlin 15y ago
        The most worrying thing to me is that despite the frequent discussions on HN, there are people in this thread who would rather assume that there is no problem, and this is just the way things are. Until blatant ignorance and misconceptions like this are dispelled, we need to have more discussions. Disclaimer: I'm male, studying STEM education and the gender gap.
      - Goladus 15y ago
        This post isn't starting discussion it's just whining about unfounded generalities and cherry-picking jokes like G-boobs-le which is not offensive and any so-called feminist who gets worked up about it should re-think her priorities. The only remotely new point is the comment about Asperger's not being an excuse for sexist behavior. So yes, the article lacks substance. There's essentially none. If I want to have a discussion about the role of women in IT and web development, this particular post is a horrible starting point. Resulting discussion will almost certainly be ill-informed and a complete waste of my time. Given the amount of work I would have to do to drag the discussion into productivity, I am better off writing my own blog.
    - sequoia 15y ago
      "circle jerk" eh???? tsk tsk. typical. (just kidding! :p) EDIT: it is a serious issue/question, tho, in my opinion, that bears discussing. So we're "not finding solutions." Does that mean we should a) forget about it, it's unsolvable/not a problem or b) Keep discussing it until we are coming up with solutions? Another important point is context. Is it OK to make a joke about women in the kitchen with your female BFF? Sure, if she's OK with it and knows you're joking. Is it OK to make the same joke in a public/professional forum? Pretty much always "no." Just because your black friend "thinks your joke is hilarious" doesn't mean you should whip it out at an industry conference.
      - chc 15y ago
        If you are struck with a revelation that hasn't had its rehashes rehashed, write it up and submit that. Please don't post crap articles just because you feel the topic is important. Fighting breast cancer is important, but I wouldn't submit somebody's tweet saying "i oppose breast cancer, cuz i like boobs lol." It does not move the issue forward at all. If anything, spamming an issue makes people wary of it as they perceive somebody has an axe to grind. To give a positive example, I loved Jolie O'Dell's article on this topic. Rather than the usual samey tirade, it was smart and different and enlightening. I felt like I was in a different place after reading it. If you find an article like that, please submit it. But don't submit articles just because they're on the same topic.
    - jackpirate 15y ago
      Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.
      - sequoia 15y ago
        "A small group of gentlemen working separately to achieve a common goal"
      - xnxn 15y ago
        Perhaps "groupthink"?
      - alex_c 15y ago
        I've been spending too much time on Reddit - I used the phrase without a second thought.
  - hack_edu 15y ago
    Very true. Nothing but sweeping happens here. It would be nice, but no convincing would change the reality of discussion here; that's sad.
- paulgb 15y ago
  Because it remains unresolved and is one of the biggest social problems faced by the industry that 90% of HN readers are (or aspire to be) in.
  - peterwwillis 15y ago
    How is this a problem not faced by any other industry in the world? I have never seen evidence that shows that IT industry people are any more sexist than people in any other field. So someone goes to a conference and there was a slide with something inappropriate on it. That means one asshole was immature and unprofessional enough to publicly shoot himself in the foot. It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. They're just smart enough not to be sexist in the middle of their speech.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.
      - yummyfajitas 15y ago
        Very often, people push the hypothesis that women avoid the software industry because of sexist behavior. (This particular article did not, but many similar articles in this genre do.) If IT is no more sexist than any other field (as peterwwillis hypothesized), this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism.
        michaelchisari 15y ago
        this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism. No, it wouldn't refute anything. For instance, in the medical field, we've had a hundred years to correct the gender imbalance, and people have fought hard, both in education and in hiring practices, to get it where it is. So, while the medical field may have as many sexist jerks, there have been failsafes put into place to correct for their behavior. IT has no such procedures. So we can either change our culture to be less sexist than other fields, or we can put in those hiring and education procedures. And to be honest, I don't consider it much of a reason to pat ourselves on the back if we're less sexist than, say, the financial industry. This is our house, let's clean it.
rimantas 15y ago
I am very curiuos, what will happen when even thinking about woman as sexually attractive will be a crime, let alone any chance of showing her that.
- deleted 15y ago
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- michaelchisari 15y ago
  That's a slippery slope fallacy. I grew up around feminists, and I can guarantee you, that is not where equality leads.
  - cosgroveb 15y ago
    And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first. Their views are usually pretty reasonable.
    - mootothemax 15y ago
      Their views are usually pretty reasonable You make it sound as if feminists are some kind of weird cult ;) But your basic point is true: just because a woman is a feminist doesn't mean that she thinks all penetrative sex is rape, such as Dworkin believed.
      - rimantas 15y ago
        You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee is perceived as an atempt to rape.
        jat850 15y ago
        We're not at all, really, and that type of hyperbole is extremely unproductive.
        15y ago
silverlake 15y ago
I skimmed the comments on Tom's boob pic. Most of the women also thought it was funny. Only a few women were loudly critical. Do we solve sexism only when 100% of women are satisfied? That's going to take a while.
- bethling 15y ago
  I think the how you see the context of the photo has a lot to do with how offensive it is - if it's a just a random photo from a party, then it's something I'd shake my head at and sigh. If it were something on an official Google page (which seems to be how some people in the comments are taking it), it would be downright offensive. As something in a "serious" article - it bothers me - not enough to be 'outraged', but it is indicative of a lot of the issues women have in technology. There are times where it's just not appropriate. It's fine to like looking a big breasted + attractive women, but also realize that women are made uncomfortable when they're put into environments where they feel like who we are/what we can do is second to what we are. Photos like that create such an environment - and take away from the article.
- wccrawford 15y ago
  You're getting voted down for not going with the group-think. For some reason, some people think that if even 1 women is offended, then it's sexist. They couldn't be more wrong. Anyhow, if all humor that made fun of someone or something were banned, there wouldn't be much left. That's the basis of most of it, and they continue to find it funny to make fun of some things, but not others. Everyone should stop being offended on behalf of people who aren't like them. Seriously. If you're offended because it affects you, I'm all ears. If you're offended because it's rude to do that to someone else, but you have no stake in it... Shut up. You're making the situation WORSE.
  - urbanjunkie 15y ago
    So, if I get offended because I see someone shout out at an Indian woman crossing the street "Fuck off back to pakiland you dirty paki", I've made the situation worse? Can you explain what I should do in such a situation, or even better, what would you do?
hsmyers 15y ago
I understand that age (lower in this case) is not a barrier to talent and that we in general seek talent. That said, why do we allow misogynist behavior? If these wunderkind were our children (of any age) these sort of actions would be curbed as best as might be possible. Children of all ages push boundaries---when there are no boundaries, there are no limits to behavior.
- deleted 15y ago
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- diolpah 15y ago
  Um. Ok, except ageism is widely perceived to be a serious problem in the software development industry and culture as well.
watty 15y ago
The real question is why is this guy so sensitive? There are sexist people in every industry of both sexes.
Hisoka 15y ago
I'm glad someone called Tom out on that image he posted. It's minor in the entire scheme of things, but what irritates me are the casual comments and reactions like "That's ok.. haha, very funny!" It's like there's this cognitive dissonance happening: people believe in equality between sexes, and treating women like regular humans with respect... yet we also make casual comments that treat females as just objects. It's not just engineers of course, it's most men. And I'm being very very strict here. I'm talking about saying things like "Check that ass out." or "Damn, I'll do that" when you're with your buddies. I may sound like a downer that can't have fun, but when the vast majority of humans on this world end up cheating on their spouses, you have to be somewhat serious about this.
- watty 15y ago
  Why is this on HN? I'd bet that < 10% of the population were offended by that photo. If it were a picture of Fabio with his shirt off (gasp) there would be < 2% offended. Yes, there are men who say "check that ass out" and there are also women. Generalizations suck.
- icebraining 15y ago
  Isn't there a difference between that picture and what's common? I mean, if there's anyone objectifying women in that picture it's the woman! And I don't see how is it wrong for people to objectify themselves. Frankly, that picture is a bad example of the rampant mysogyny which does actually exist in our field.
- tomjen3 15y ago
  Please provide evidence for your claims about cheating. Secondly there is no issue with treating women with respect in the workplace and have fun with them after.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
aspir 15y ago
I'm more on the web marketing side, and it's nearly every 1-2 weeks where I see someone write an article or give a presentation likening customer acquisition and conversion to "tricking hawt chicks into hooking up with you." It's absurd. Real men operate with respect, not misogyny.
ehutch79 15y ago
you know what the solution is? reddit/stackoverflow style voting on badges. some way of tagging someone at a conference or whatnot as being an ass, or cool, that way you get a warning that this person is a douche. i'm bettin the same people who are creeps are the same people i wouldn't want to bother talking to anyway. the only problem is someone of course is going to hack it...
switch 15y ago
Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all the people here but a lot of industries (like real estate and sales) have a LOT more sexist creeps than programmers. There are lots of areas where people are sexist and racist and jerks - it doesn't stop the people who want to get into those areas from getting into them. Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. The first question people going on and on about 'ratios in the software industry' need to answer is - Are there really that many women interested in becoming a software developer? Is their interest a lukewarm type of interest where the minute they see one sexist programmer jerk they run off? We are talking about the same women who fought tooth and nail for things like the right to vote and who do lots of really tough things like raise a family (often alone). Are we to believe that a few sexist programmers scare off these same women? Final Question: Is the presence of some percentage of sexist jerk programmers the real reason there are far fewer women in programming? Is that really what differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  Women are fighting to get more respect and representation in computer programming. That's why we're having this discussion.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    Which was actually started by a man.
    - danso 15y ago
      ...and the point is? a) Many of the leading abolitionists in America and Europe were white and b) if we're in agreeance that the majority of comsci professionals are men, and that comsci professionals make up much of HN, then it's not surprising that this discussion, or any discussion on HN, was initiated by a male.
deleted 15y ago
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mynameishere 15y ago
I have seen precisely zero evidence of any "sexism" in the software industry. Maybe I'm going to the wrong conferences but this bullshit is getting old.
- ericb 15y ago
  Clearly your anecdotal evidence provides incontrovertible proof--proof enough to declare this "bullshit."
Duff 15y ago
What is it about Google+ that brings out the sexism debate? Not too long ago, the public display of a person's gender was going to enpower stalkers and rapists. The same boorish nonsense goes on in other contexts, but doesn't seem to attract the same level of drama.
nickolai 15y ago
For the same reason that we tolerate trolls and a-holes of all races and genders. Which is that most people dont care. We happen to have 80% men in the industry. Since 'male sexists' seem for some reason to be more common among the male population, we do have a bit more of them than other branches with a more balanced male-female ratio. I've yet to see a study proving that we have in proportion more sexist men than other fields.
ICanDoMore 15y ago
If you're wondering why a field once roughly equal in its gender balance is now male-dominated, perhaps some real quotes from the hiring manager at this company will shed some light. "Oh, a female applicant!" (Tone: Surprise) "He's male which immediately places him above [the female applicant]" (Tone: Joking... but inappropriately sandwiched between comments relevant to their ability to do the job, imo) Argument ensued as I pushed to see how serious he was being... had an interesting 5 minutes of biting my tongue while the owner of the company justified not hiring women, at length. The usual stuff, maternity leave etc. Plenty of anecdotes. Most interesting part was right after the surprise at a female applicant, though... "I've only known one female developer that was any good... now, you might say that there just aren't that many female developers full stop, and that's true, but there must be a reason for that" I passed the conversations on, as verbatim as I can, to the relevant governmenty people but they can do nothing and I can do nothing. The only person that can do anything is a female applicant, if they don't get accepted, and it's shown that this is due to discrimination. Pretty sure there's nothing more I can do at this point :( Very, very angry and feeling utterly powerless.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  You could tell the female candidate.
  - ICanDoMore 15y ago
    Two problems with this: 1) She can only bring a discrimination case if she doesn't get hired and can show it's because she was female. If they hire a better male applicant, there is no case. 2) If she brings action against them which fails, I am then wide open to libel and / or slander.
    - jasonlotito 15y ago
      Oh, I completely realize there are problems. Just pointing out what else could be done. Also, she doesn't have to bring a case against them, nor do you need to present yourself and leave yourself open. Not sure if just letting her know anonymously would do anything for her. Personally, I'd want to avoid working in such a place.
Cherian_Abraham 15y ago
I met with a Director at a local consulting firm a couple of days ago and while discussing the growing mobile practice at his firm and talking of the team in charge of it, he referred to the lady who held the reins in growing the practice, and how effective she is and how hungry she is, in growing it. And then he made the comment that she being all that, is also "easy on the eyes". I flinched, but held my tongue and it bothered me afterwards enough to think why he felt compelled to put that out there, especially to someone he just met. I agree the problem is pervasive, whether its against women, minorities or the guy down the hallway.
- hackinthebochs 15y ago
  I don't see this as necessarily a problem. The fact is, men judge how women look and will comment on it when among other men; so do women. There's nothing inherently sexist about saying a woman is good looking. It was probably more his attempt to relate to you on a personal level.
  - Scriptor 15y ago
    There are different situations where commenting on looks is appropriate and when it isn't. If the two know each other well as friends then that's just guys commenting on a woman's looks. The line between professional and friendly discussion in blurred anyway. Like you said, women do the same thing when amongst friends. If they didn't know each other that well then all discussion should stay mostly professional. If a comment like this is made then it either indicates that the Director considers women's looks part of a professional appraising of their abilities or he is awkward at making conversation.
  - AndrewDucker 15y ago
    Actually, I work with a load of men (and a chunk of women), and this kind of conversation never comes up in the office, because it is understood to be deeply inappropriate for a work environment.
    - rokhayakebe 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
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Enlightenment 15y ago
"All men are creeps for being naked in front of me" --- said the female reporter in the mens locker room
nickpp 15y ago
Oh, just grow a pair. And a sense of humor. Sexy is GOOD. I SO wish more posts contained sexy images (of any gender) than your repressed, frustrated, fearful and boringly unfunny drivel.
thomasdavis 15y ago
The picture is not offensive to anyone who matters, honestly if you are offended you should probably go build a sexless utopia and die off in a generation.
kenneth_reitz 15y ago
There hasn't been any sexism at the developer conferences I've attended. At all. However, I've heard personal accounts from friends who have attended conferences of other circles (say, a linux-centered conf), and the account is quite different. It really depends on the culture of the group. -- I don't think Tom's photo is sexist. It's inappropriate, perhaps (depending on the audience), but not an attack on equality. Naming a project 'Pantyshot' and 'Upskirt' is.
cheez 15y ago
I was at a tech meetup a couple of weeks back and I walked in to see a lot of women. It was really refreshing. Fast-forward a little bit and you can hear guys snickering when the women went up. I don't understand it but I fucking hate it. My sister is great at her job (IT project management) and my daughter loves programming. I can't wait for her to show some guy how to do the job. Some of the women made the best presentations, maybe because they're women but probably because they're just smart. I wish I could punch all of those insecure, sexist guys in the mouth.
- almightygod 15y ago
  Violence will most certainly not solve the issue and seems ironically to be a typical male response. Where these men were truly snickering at the fact women were speaking? Correlation does not always mean causation. I don't know what would be snicker-worthy of women speaking. I can think of several reasons why attendees might snicker at a speaker regardless of their sex.
  - cheez 15y ago
    I distinctly heard "snicker snicker woman snicker snicker". I wouldn't have remembered otherwise.
    - almightygod 15y ago
      maybe it was "haha, that was a great joke...oh look a woman speaker, awesome...dude i have a similar joke for you"
kstenerud 15y ago
I'm saddened (but not surprised) at the negative reaction to the google boob picture. The fact is, there's nothing bad about that picture at all, and Tom is not a misogynist for posting it. Take a close look. There are 3 people in that photo. All three are smiling. All three are having fun. What exactly is wrong with that photo? Is it bad because it portrays the woman as a sex object? Why is that bad? Does it means that all women are sex objects? Obviously not. Does it mean that the woman in the photo is ONLY good for sex? Obviously not. So what's wrong with the photo? Is it because it encourages men to think of all women that way? Has any such sort of causal link been found? How many men at your office slap you on the ass on a daily basis? How many of them take you right there, on the office desk, just like in a pornographic magazine's depiction? What percentage of men behave like creeps? 1%? Do you honestly think that the only thing keeping the other 99% from going on a rape orgy is that they haven't been fed enough sexist propaganda? Do you think that the 1% would magically stop if you could just remove all material you find objectionable from the world? Who is to blame for the inappropriate behavior of these creeps? Licentious media? Just like violent video games turn our children into vicious killers? Just like marijuana turns people into psychopaths? If someone stabs someone with a kitchen knife, do you blame Henkel? If someone steals a car, do you blame Grand Theft Auto? If someone rapes a woman, do you blame pornography? Blaming someone else for a person's bad behavior is naive, childish, and dangerous. The person to correct is the person who committed the act. So what's wrong with that photo? Is it because its sexual nature offended some people? Some people are offended by a picture of two guys kissing. Should we condemn that too? Do you believe in the possibility of some women actually ENJOYING being treated like a sex object? If not, your objection becomes very understandable. It's fairly common to wrongly assume that everyone else thinks the same way as you do. If the thought of being treated that way disgusts you, then you'd probably assume that nobody in their right mind would enjoy it. You'd probably go through a laundry list of reasons why someone would participate: * She was coerced into it * She's not in her right mind * She was drugged or drunk The problem is that this line of thinking leads to the misogynistic view that women are somehow incapable of making their own decisions (we see this already in legislation that excuses the woman for having sex while drunk, but not the man). Suddenly, woman is a poor, defenseless creature who must be protected from everybody, especially herself. So what's wrong with that photo? All three members are consenting and enjoying themselves. Who are you to criticize their choice?
geekam 15y ago
Has there been a well defined study, interviews of women in the industry as to what do they want? What do they think and go through and what would they like changed?
rmrm 15y ago
I'm guessing a lot of people haven't worked in other industries. Like on a mfg floor, or at a lumber mill, or on a fishing boat. Or as part of a custodial staff. The sexist creep ratio in the SW industry is lower than most. The SW Industry appears much more sensitive to the issue, however.
jasontraff 15y ago
Wow - I completely read this as 'sexiest creeps' and it gave it a whole other connotation.
cafard 15y ago
Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the loading docks/road crews/World Bank?
aroberge 15y ago
On its own, the fact that women represent less than 50% of the people involved in programming is not proof of sexism being worse in IT than in other fields; many other fields show significant gender imbalance. On its own, the fact that a number of women involved in IT complain publicly via the internet of sexism is not a proof that the situation is worse in IT than in other fields; women in IT are more likely to communicate via the internet than those in other fields. Yes, there are other factors in play (parents & school counsellors bias, peer pressure, etc.) that influence the choice of a career. But when you put it all together, it is hard to deny that there is a sexist attitude in IT. The fact that there might be a sexist attitude in other fields is not a valid excuse for not doing the right thing and call out those that show a lack of respect towards women in IT. [Yes, the same point could be made about other fields.] To deny that there is a problem is to be part of that problem. Respect from others is not something one should earn, it is something everyone should expect to receive.

63 points by benwerd 15y ago

Who is "we"? Oh, that's right - the sexist creeps who apparently make up the software industry he's referring to. You encounter this anywhere dominated by one sex or the other. It's not at all unique to the software industry.

hack_edu 15y ago

Why do we let the same tired discussion about gender pervade HN once per week?

michaelchisari 15y ago
Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the rug.
- alex_c 15y ago
  Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions But you are arguing against the discussion, no? Instead of using this article (as much as you may feel it lacks substance) as an opportunity to discuss the problem further, and propose solutions or suggestions... Instead, you label it a circle jerk. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you haven't done much to change that.
    - alex_c 15y ago
      No, I haven't - because I still see nothing of substance in the article, and past experience gives me little faith that the discussion is going anywhere interesting. I don't see what I - or anyone - can contribute beyond "Sexism is bad, don't do it!". I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, I've said my piece, I see no reason to clutter up the thread with more meta discussion from me.
      - gatlin 15y ago
        The most worrying thing to me is that despite the frequent discussions on HN, there are people in this thread who would rather assume that there is no problem, and this is just the way things are. Until blatant ignorance and misconceptions like this are dispelled, we need to have more discussions. Disclaimer: I'm male, studying STEM education and the gender gap.
    - Goladus 15y ago
      This post isn't starting discussion it's just whining about unfounded generalities and cherry-picking jokes like G-boobs-le which is not offensive and any so-called feminist who gets worked up about it should re-think her priorities. The only remotely new point is the comment about Asperger's not being an excuse for sexist behavior. So yes, the article lacks substance. There's essentially none. If I want to have a discussion about the role of women in IT and web development, this particular post is a horrible starting point. Resulting discussion will almost certainly be ill-informed and a complete waste of my time. Given the amount of work I would have to do to drag the discussion into productivity, I am better off writing my own blog.
  - sequoia 15y ago
    "circle jerk" eh???? tsk tsk. typical. (just kidding! :p) EDIT: it is a serious issue/question, tho, in my opinion, that bears discussing. So we're "not finding solutions." Does that mean we should a) forget about it, it's unsolvable/not a problem or b) Keep discussing it until we are coming up with solutions? Another important point is context. Is it OK to make a joke about women in the kitchen with your female BFF? Sure, if she's OK with it and knows you're joking. Is it OK to make the same joke in a public/professional forum? Pretty much always "no." Just because your black friend "thinks your joke is hilarious" doesn't mean you should whip it out at an industry conference.
    - chc 15y ago
      If you are struck with a revelation that hasn't had its rehashes rehashed, write it up and submit that. Please don't post crap articles just because you feel the topic is important. Fighting breast cancer is important, but I wouldn't submit somebody's tweet saying "i oppose breast cancer, cuz i like boobs lol." It does not move the issue forward at all. If anything, spamming an issue makes people wary of it as they perceive somebody has an axe to grind. To give a positive example, I loved Jolie O'Dell's article on this topic. Rather than the usual samey tirade, it was smart and different and enlightening. I felt like I was in a different place after reading it. If you find an article like that, please submit it. But don't submit articles just because they're on the same topic.
  - jackpirate 15y ago
    Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.
    - sequoia 15y ago
      "A small group of gentlemen working separately to achieve a common goal"
    - xnxn 15y ago
      Perhaps "groupthink"?
    - alex_c 15y ago
      I've been spending too much time on Reddit - I used the phrase without a second thought.
- hack_edu 15y ago
  Very true. Nothing but sweeping happens here. It would be nice, but no convincing would change the reality of discussion here; that's sad.
paulgb 15y ago
Because it remains unresolved and is one of the biggest social problems faced by the industry that 90% of HN readers are (or aspire to be) in.
- peterwwillis 15y ago
  How is this a problem not faced by any other industry in the world? I have never seen evidence that shows that IT industry people are any more sexist than people in any other field. So someone goes to a conference and there was a slide with something inappropriate on it. That means one asshole was immature and unprofessional enough to publicly shoot himself in the foot. It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. They're just smart enough not to be sexist in the middle of their speech.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    It doesn't mean there are aren't plenty of other sexist people in other careers though. Sure, but we are in this industry, and pointing fingers at other industries does not get us off the hook.
    - yummyfajitas 15y ago
      Very often, people push the hypothesis that women avoid the software industry because of sexist behavior. (This particular article did not, but many similar articles in this genre do.) If IT is no more sexist than any other field (as peterwwillis hypothesized), this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism.
      - michaelchisari 15y ago
        this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism. No, it wouldn't refute anything. For instance, in the medical field, we've had a hundred years to correct the gender imbalance, and people have fought hard, both in education and in hiring practices, to get it where it is. So, while the medical field may have as many sexist jerks, there have been failsafes put into place to correct for their behavior. IT has no such procedures. So we can either change our culture to be less sexist than other fields, or we can put in those hiring and education procedures. And to be honest, I don't consider it much of a reason to pat ourselves on the back if we're less sexist than, say, the financial industry. This is our house, let's clean it.

rimantas 15y ago

I am very curiuos, what will happen when even thinking about woman as sexually attractive will be a crime, let alone any chance of showing her that.

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michaelchisari 15y ago
That's a slippery slope fallacy. I grew up around feminists, and I can guarantee you, that is not where equality leads.
- cosgroveb 15y ago
  And before everyone starts bashing feminism by lumping them all in with Dworkin and the most extreme examples, please try getting to know one first. Their views are usually pretty reasonable.
  - mootothemax 15y ago
    Their views are usually pretty reasonable You make it sound as if feminists are some kind of weird cult ;) But your basic point is true: just because a woman is a feminist doesn't mean that she thinks all penetrative sex is rape, such as Dworkin believed.
    - rimantas 15y ago
      You know, we are near the situation when asking a girl out for a cup of coffee is perceived as an atempt to rape.
      - jat850 15y ago
        We're not at all, really, and that type of hyperbole is extremely unproductive.
      - 15y ago

silverlake 15y ago

I skimmed the comments on Tom's boob pic. Most of the women also thought it was funny. Only a few women were loudly critical. Do we solve sexism only when 100% of women are satisfied? That's going to take a while.

bethling 15y ago
I think the how you see the context of the photo has a lot to do with how offensive it is - if it's a just a random photo from a party, then it's something I'd shake my head at and sigh. If it were something on an official Google page (which seems to be how some people in the comments are taking it), it would be downright offensive. As something in a "serious" article - it bothers me - not enough to be 'outraged', but it is indicative of a lot of the issues women have in technology. There are times where it's just not appropriate. It's fine to like looking a big breasted + attractive women, but also realize that women are made uncomfortable when they're put into environments where they feel like who we are/what we can do is second to what we are. Photos like that create such an environment - and take away from the article.
wccrawford 15y ago
You're getting voted down for not going with the group-think. For some reason, some people think that if even 1 women is offended, then it's sexist. They couldn't be more wrong. Anyhow, if all humor that made fun of someone or something were banned, there wouldn't be much left. That's the basis of most of it, and they continue to find it funny to make fun of some things, but not others. Everyone should stop being offended on behalf of people who aren't like them. Seriously. If you're offended because it affects you, I'm all ears. If you're offended because it's rude to do that to someone else, but you have no stake in it... Shut up. You're making the situation WORSE.
- urbanjunkie 15y ago
  So, if I get offended because I see someone shout out at an Indian woman crossing the street "Fuck off back to pakiland you dirty paki", I've made the situation worse? Can you explain what I should do in such a situation, or even better, what would you do?

hsmyers 15y ago

I understand that age (lower in this case) is not a barrier to talent and that we in general seek talent. That said, why do we allow misogynist behavior? If these wunderkind were our children (of any age) these sort of actions would be curbed as best as might be possible. Children of all ages push boundaries---when there are no boundaries, there are no limits to behavior.

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diolpah 15y ago
Um. Ok, except ageism is widely perceived to be a serious problem in the software development industry and culture as well.

watty 15y ago

The real question is why is this guy so sensitive? There are sexist people in every industry of both sexes.

Hisoka 15y ago

I'm glad someone called Tom out on that image he posted. It's minor in the entire scheme of things, but what irritates me are the casual comments and reactions like "That's ok.. haha, very funny!" It's like there's this cognitive dissonance happening: people believe in equality between sexes, and treating women like regular humans with respect... yet we also make casual comments that treat females as just objects. It's not just engineers of course, it's most men. And I'm being very very strict here. I'm talking about saying things like "Check that ass out." or "Damn, I'll do that" when you're with your buddies. I may sound like a downer that can't have fun, but when the vast majority of humans on this world end up cheating on their spouses, you have to be somewhat serious about this.

watty 15y ago
Why is this on HN? I'd bet that < 10% of the population were offended by that photo. If it were a picture of Fabio with his shirt off (gasp) there would be < 2% offended. Yes, there are men who say "check that ass out" and there are also women. Generalizations suck.
icebraining 15y ago
Isn't there a difference between that picture and what's common? I mean, if there's anyone objectifying women in that picture it's the woman! And I don't see how is it wrong for people to objectify themselves. Frankly, that picture is a bad example of the rampant mysogyny which does actually exist in our field.
tomjen3 15y ago
Please provide evidence for your claims about cheating. Secondly there is no issue with treating women with respect in the workplace and have fun with them after.
- deleted 15y ago
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aspir 15y ago

I'm more on the web marketing side, and it's nearly every 1-2 weeks where I see someone write an article or give a presentation likening customer acquisition and conversion to "tricking hawt chicks into hooking up with you." It's absurd. Real men operate with respect, not misogyny.

ehutch79 15y ago

you know what the solution is? reddit/stackoverflow style voting on badges. some way of tagging someone at a conference or whatnot as being an ass, or cool, that way you get a warning that this person is a douche. i'm bettin the same people who are creeps are the same people i wouldn't want to bother talking to anyway. the only problem is someone of course is going to hack it...

switch 15y ago

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all the people here but a lot of industries (like real estate and sales) have a LOT more sexist creeps than programmers. There are lots of areas where people are sexist and racist and jerks - it doesn't stop the people who want to get into those areas from getting into them. Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. The first question people going on and on about 'ratios in the software industry' need to answer is - Are there really that many women interested in becoming a software developer? Is their interest a lukewarm type of interest where the minute they see one sexist programmer jerk they run off? We are talking about the same women who fought tooth and nail for things like the right to vote and who do lots of really tough things like raise a family (often alone). Are we to believe that a few sexist programmers scare off these same women? Final Question: Is the presence of some percentage of sexist jerk programmers the real reason there are far fewer women in programming? Is that really what differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?

michaelchisari 15y ago
Women are fighting to get more respect and representation in computer programming. That's why we're having this discussion.
- icebraining 15y ago
  Which was actually started by a man.
  - danso 15y ago
    ...and the point is? a) Many of the leading abolitionists in America and Europe were white and b) if we're in agreeance that the majority of comsci professionals are men, and that comsci professionals make up much of HN, then it's not surprising that this discussion, or any discussion on HN, was initiated by a male.

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mynameishere 15y ago

I have seen precisely zero evidence of any "sexism" in the software industry. Maybe I'm going to the wrong conferences but this bullshit is getting old.

ericb 15y ago
Clearly your anecdotal evidence provides incontrovertible proof--proof enough to declare this "bullshit."

Duff 15y ago

What is it about Google+ that brings out the sexism debate? Not too long ago, the public display of a person's gender was going to enpower stalkers and rapists. The same boorish nonsense goes on in other contexts, but doesn't seem to attract the same level of drama.

nickolai 15y ago

For the same reason that we tolerate trolls and a-holes of all races and genders. Which is that most people dont care. We happen to have 80% men in the industry. Since 'male sexists' seem for some reason to be more common among the male population, we do have a bit more of them than other branches with a more balanced male-female ratio. I've yet to see a study proving that we have in proportion more sexist men than other fields.

ICanDoMore 15y ago

If you're wondering why a field once roughly equal in its gender balance is now male-dominated, perhaps some real quotes from the hiring manager at this company will shed some light. "Oh, a female applicant!" (Tone: Surprise) "He's male which immediately places him above [the female applicant]" (Tone: Joking... but inappropriately sandwiched between comments relevant to their ability to do the job, imo) Argument ensued as I pushed to see how serious he was being... had an interesting 5 minutes of biting my tongue while the owner of the company justified not hiring women, at length. The usual stuff, maternity leave etc. Plenty of anecdotes. Most interesting part was right after the surprise at a female applicant, though... "I've only known one female developer that was any good... now, you might say that there just aren't that many female developers full stop, and that's true, but there must be a reason for that" I passed the conversations on, as verbatim as I can, to the relevant governmenty people but they can do nothing and I can do nothing. The only person that can do anything is a female applicant, if they don't get accepted, and it's shown that this is due to discrimination. Pretty sure there's nothing more I can do at this point :( Very, very angry and feeling utterly powerless.

jasonlotito 15y ago
You could tell the female candidate.
- ICanDoMore 15y ago
  Two problems with this: 1) She can only bring a discrimination case if she doesn't get hired and can show it's because she was female. If they hire a better male applicant, there is no case. 2) If she brings action against them which fails, I am then wide open to libel and / or slander.
  - jasonlotito 15y ago
    Oh, I completely realize there are problems. Just pointing out what else could be done. Also, she doesn't have to bring a case against them, nor do you need to present yourself and leave yourself open. Not sure if just letting her know anonymously would do anything for her. Personally, I'd want to avoid working in such a place.

Cherian_Abraham 15y ago

I met with a Director at a local consulting firm a couple of days ago and while discussing the growing mobile practice at his firm and talking of the team in charge of it, he referred to the lady who held the reins in growing the practice, and how effective she is and how hungry she is, in growing it. And then he made the comment that she being all that, is also "easy on the eyes". I flinched, but held my tongue and it bothered me afterwards enough to think why he felt compelled to put that out there, especially to someone he just met. I agree the problem is pervasive, whether its against women, minorities or the guy down the hallway.

hackinthebochs 15y ago
I don't see this as necessarily a problem. The fact is, men judge how women look and will comment on it when among other men; so do women. There's nothing inherently sexist about saying a woman is good looking. It was probably more his attempt to relate to you on a personal level.
- Scriptor 15y ago
  There are different situations where commenting on looks is appropriate and when it isn't. If the two know each other well as friends then that's just guys commenting on a woman's looks. The line between professional and friendly discussion in blurred anyway. Like you said, women do the same thing when amongst friends. If they didn't know each other that well then all discussion should stay mostly professional. If a comment like this is made then it either indicates that the Director considers women's looks part of a professional appraising of their abilities or he is awkward at making conversation.
- AndrewDucker 15y ago
  Actually, I work with a load of men (and a chunk of women), and this kind of conversation never comes up in the office, because it is understood to be deeply inappropriate for a work environment.
  - rokhayakebe 15y ago

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Enlightenment 15y ago

"All men are creeps for being naked in front of me" --- said the female reporter in the mens locker room

nickpp 15y ago

Oh, just grow a pair. And a sense of humor. Sexy is GOOD. I SO wish more posts contained sexy images (of any gender) than your repressed, frustrated, fearful and boringly unfunny drivel.

thomasdavis 15y ago

The picture is not offensive to anyone who matters, honestly if you are offended you should probably go build a sexless utopia and die off in a generation.

kenneth_reitz 15y ago

There hasn't been any sexism at the developer conferences I've attended. At all. However, I've heard personal accounts from friends who have attended conferences of other circles (say, a linux-centered conf), and the account is quite different. It really depends on the culture of the group. -- I don't think Tom's photo is sexist. It's inappropriate, perhaps (depending on the audience), but not an attack on equality. Naming a project 'Pantyshot' and 'Upskirt' is.

cheez 15y ago

I was at a tech meetup a couple of weeks back and I walked in to see a lot of women. It was really refreshing. Fast-forward a little bit and you can hear guys snickering when the women went up. I don't understand it but I fucking hate it. My sister is great at her job (IT project management) and my daughter loves programming. I can't wait for her to show some guy how to do the job. Some of the women made the best presentations, maybe because they're women but probably because they're just smart. I wish I could punch all of those insecure, sexist guys in the mouth.

almightygod 15y ago
Violence will most certainly not solve the issue and seems ironically to be a typical male response. Where these men were truly snickering at the fact women were speaking? Correlation does not always mean causation. I don't know what would be snicker-worthy of women speaking. I can think of several reasons why attendees might snicker at a speaker regardless of their sex.
- cheez 15y ago
  I distinctly heard "snicker snicker woman snicker snicker". I wouldn't have remembered otherwise.
  - almightygod 15y ago
    maybe it was "haha, that was a great joke...oh look a woman speaker, awesome...dude i have a similar joke for you"

kstenerud 15y ago

I'm saddened (but not surprised) at the negative reaction to the google boob picture. The fact is, there's nothing bad about that picture at all, and Tom is not a misogynist for posting it. Take a close look. There are 3 people in that photo. All three are smiling. All three are having fun. What exactly is wrong with that photo? Is it bad because it portrays the woman as a sex object? Why is that bad? Does it means that all women are sex objects? Obviously not. Does it mean that the woman in the photo is ONLY good for sex? Obviously not. So what's wrong with the photo? Is it because it encourages men to think of all women that way? Has any such sort of causal link been found? How many men at your office slap you on the ass on a daily basis? How many of them take you right there, on the office desk, just like in a pornographic magazine's depiction? What percentage of men behave like creeps? 1%? Do you honestly think that the only thing keeping the other 99% from going on a rape orgy is that they haven't been fed enough sexist propaganda? Do you think that the 1% would magically stop if you could just remove all material you find objectionable from the world? Who is to blame for the inappropriate behavior of these creeps? Licentious media? Just like violent video games turn our children into vicious killers? Just like marijuana turns people into psychopaths? If someone stabs someone with a kitchen knife, do you blame Henkel? If someone steals a car, do you blame Grand Theft Auto? If someone rapes a woman, do you blame pornography? Blaming someone else for a person's bad behavior is naive, childish, and dangerous. The person to correct is the person who committed the act. So what's wrong with that photo? Is it because its sexual nature offended some people? Some people are offended by a picture of two guys kissing. Should we condemn that too? Do you believe in the possibility of some women actually ENJOYING being treated like a sex object? If not, your objection becomes very understandable. It's fairly common to wrongly assume that everyone else thinks the same way as you do. If the thought of being treated that way disgusts you, then you'd probably assume that nobody in their right mind would enjoy it. You'd probably go through a laundry list of reasons why someone would participate: * She was coerced into it * She's not in her right mind * She was drugged or drunk The problem is that this line of thinking leads to the misogynistic view that women are somehow incapable of making their own decisions (we see this already in legislation that excuses the woman for having sex while drunk, but not the man). Suddenly, woman is a poor, defenseless creature who must be protected from everybody, especially herself. So what's wrong with that photo? All three members are consenting and enjoying themselves. Who are you to criticize their choice?

geekam 15y ago

Has there been a well defined study, interviews of women in the industry as to what do they want? What do they think and go through and what would they like changed?

rmrm 15y ago

I'm guessing a lot of people haven't worked in other industries. Like on a mfg floor, or at a lumber mill, or on a fishing boat. Or as part of a custodial staff. The sexist creep ratio in the SW industry is lower than most. The SW Industry appears much more sensitive to the issue, however.

jasontraff 15y ago

Wow - I completely read this as 'sexiest creeps' and it gave it a whole other connotation.

cafard 15y ago

Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the loading docks/road crews/World Bank?

aroberge 15y ago

On its own, the fact that women represent less than 50% of the people involved in programming is not proof of sexism being worse in IT than in other fields; many other fields show significant gender imbalance. On its own, the fact that a number of women involved in IT complain publicly via the internet of sexism is not a proof that the situation is worse in IT than in other fields; women in IT are more likely to communicate via the internet than those in other fields. Yes, there are other factors in play (parents & school counsellors bias, peer pressure, etc.) that influence the choice of a career. But when you put it all together, it is hard to deny that there is a sexist attitude in IT. The fact that there might be a sexist attitude in other fields is not a valid excuse for not doing the right thing and call out those that show a lack of respect towards women in IT. [Yes, the same point could be made about other fields.] To deny that there is a problem is to be part of that problem. Respect from others is not something one should earn, it is something everyone should expect to receive.