3 ms·

>It seems quite a few vaccinated people get COVID-19 but it seems very few get seriously ill. You need to skate where the puck is going. If you look at the dat

>It seems quite a few vaccinated people get COVID-19 but it seems very few get seriously ill. You need to skate where the puck is going. If you look at the data coming out of Israel, which is ahead of everyone else on the curve with vaccinations (and also releases data without manipulating it first, unlike the US - which uses exponentially looser rules for diagnosing COVID in the unvaccinated versus the vaccinated), you get a very different story. https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/08/08/israel-hospital-vaccinated.html https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/08/08/israel-hospital-vacci... Wait two months and the US and other countries will be where Israel is today. The risk with ADE increases as antibody levels from the vaccinations wane. That's happening now.

jimmyswimmy 5y ago
Not thrilled with that source. But given that Israel has such a high rate of vaccination, it seems reasonable to expect that most of those admitted to hospital at this point will have had the vaccine.
- willmadden 5y ago
  According to the source, the rate of hospitalizations and critical cases is higher amongst the vaccinated, even adjusting for the higher overall vaccination rates. You could make the claim that it isn't age adjusted, but it's hard to make that case when almost all (90%+) of the people being hospitalized are vaccinated, when the general population is ~70% vaccinated. I agree the source isn't great, but it's hard finding information that hasn't been spun by tech companies at this point. It's worth watching the data coming out of Israel.
wlesieutre 5y ago
> She said, “This battle is not between the right and the left, it’s not between conservatives and liberals or Republicans and Democrats.” Rather, “this is a battle between Our Lord and the devil,” and every person must choose a side. ... > She said, “If we treat them early – early is the ticket – with ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, 80% of the people will not have to go to the hospital.” I was under the impression that neither invermectin or hydroxychloroquine has been demonstrated to be effective. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.18.21252037v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.18.21252037v... However you feel about vaccines being foisted on us by the devil, that article looks pretty shaky to me as a source of public health advice.
- dave_sullivan 5y ago
  > Requiring COVID-19 jabs has become a way to exercise “total control” over people. “They want to force an experimental compound that we really don’t know the long-term effects [of]. Then they want to, on top of that, make sure everyone has a [vaccine] passport. So, it’s total control of a populace. And that’s communism. We’re headed that way,” she said. This gave me a chuckle and did not inspire confidence.
  - willmadden 5y ago
    France is on the brink of a revolution over vaccine passports. Police are inspecting peoples' "papers" at restaurants, and there are anti-passport protests with police leading the parade. There are full blown brownshirt squads in Australia. Police are beating protesters in Canada. It's not only reasonable to hypothesize this is about control, to me it's irrational to think otherwise at this point.
- willmadden 5y ago
  Ivermectin is incredibly effective. It's just not profitable. Here is a meta analysis of 63 (so far) randomized double blind trials: https://ivmmeta.com/ https://ivmmeta.com/
  - lucd 5y ago
    Not peer reviewed, not published, anonymous authors. This is a fake meta-analysis. The most important study that weighted in IVM favor was bogus and was retracted some days ago.
    - willmadden 5y ago
      If you don't like the meta analysis, then sample underlying (cited) studies. I have and didn't find any misrepresentations. Ivermectin looks like a great drug to repurpose as an outpatient therapy for COVID-19.
  - raphlinus 5y ago
sorethescore 5y ago
So far we haven't seen any evidence of ADE in-vivo. Until that data shows up we shouldn't be jumping to any conclusions based on in-vitro or other computational models.
- willmadden 5y ago
  I disagree that we should wait until we see ADE in the general public before addressing it as a risk. If ADE hits the vaccinated population and is as serious as it was with other viruses, like SARS-1, it will be a catastrophe of biblical proportions.
dtwest 5y ago
Could you elaborate on how the US data is manipulated or why it is lower quality than Israel's?
- willmadden 5y ago
  I would be happy to. The CDC changed their guidance with PCR testing so a "breakthrough case" (i.e. a vaccinated person testing positive for COVID) is defined as 28 cycles or fewer, but gave no guidance about changing the PCR cycle count for unvaccinated (which remains in the 35-40 range most places). This means it takes thousands of times less material to make an unvaccinated person a COVID "case" than a vaccinated person. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre... They constantly stealth-edit the page, so it's helpful to look at archived versions here: https://archive.is/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html https://archive.is/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hea... Here's an article about it: https://washingtonwatch.org/caught-red-handed-cdc-changes-test-thresholds-to-virtually-eliminate-new-covid-cases/ https://washingtonwatch.org/caught-red-handed-cdc-changes-te...

jimmyswimmy 5y ago

Not thrilled with that source. But given that Israel has such a high rate of vaccination, it seems reasonable to expect that most of those admitted to hospital at this point will have had the vaccine.

willmadden 5y ago
According to the source, the rate of hospitalizations and critical cases is higher amongst the vaccinated, even adjusting for the higher overall vaccination rates. You could make the claim that it isn't age adjusted, but it's hard to make that case when almost all (90%+) of the people being hospitalized are vaccinated, when the general population is ~70% vaccinated. I agree the source isn't great, but it's hard finding information that hasn't been spun by tech companies at this point. It's worth watching the data coming out of Israel.

wlesieutre 5y ago

> She said, “This battle is not between the right and the left, it’s not between conservatives and liberals or Republicans and Democrats.” Rather, “this is a battle between Our Lord and the devil,” and every person must choose a side. ... > She said, “If we treat them early – early is the ticket – with ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, 80% of the people will not have to go to the hospital.” I was under the impression that neither invermectin or hydroxychloroquine has been demonstrated to be effective. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.18.21252037v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.18.21252037v... However you feel about vaccines being foisted on us by the devil, that article looks pretty shaky to me as a source of public health advice.

dave_sullivan 5y ago
> Requiring COVID-19 jabs has become a way to exercise “total control” over people. “They want to force an experimental compound that we really don’t know the long-term effects [of]. Then they want to, on top of that, make sure everyone has a [vaccine] passport. So, it’s total control of a populace. And that’s communism. We’re headed that way,” she said. This gave me a chuckle and did not inspire confidence.
- willmadden 5y ago
  France is on the brink of a revolution over vaccine passports. Police are inspecting peoples' "papers" at restaurants, and there are anti-passport protests with police leading the parade. There are full blown brownshirt squads in Australia. Police are beating protesters in Canada. It's not only reasonable to hypothesize this is about control, to me it's irrational to think otherwise at this point.
willmadden 5y ago
Ivermectin is incredibly effective. It's just not profitable. Here is a meta analysis of 63 (so far) randomized double blind trials: https://ivmmeta.com/ https://ivmmeta.com/
- lucd 5y ago
  Not peer reviewed, not published, anonymous authors. This is a fake meta-analysis. The most important study that weighted in IVM favor was bogus and was retracted some days ago.
  - willmadden 5y ago
    If you don't like the meta analysis, then sample underlying (cited) studies. I have and didn't find any misrepresentations. Ivermectin looks like a great drug to repurpose as an outpatient therapy for COVID-19.
- raphlinus 5y ago

sorethescore 5y ago

So far we haven't seen any evidence of ADE in-vivo. Until that data shows up we shouldn't be jumping to any conclusions based on in-vitro or other computational models.

willmadden 5y ago
I disagree that we should wait until we see ADE in the general public before addressing it as a risk. If ADE hits the vaccinated population and is as serious as it was with other viruses, like SARS-1, it will be a catastrophe of biblical proportions.

dtwest 5y ago

Could you elaborate on how the US data is manipulated or why it is lower quality than Israel's?

willmadden 5y ago
I would be happy to. The CDC changed their guidance with PCR testing so a "breakthrough case" (i.e. a vaccinated person testing positive for COVID) is defined as 28 cycles or fewer, but gave no guidance about changing the PCR cycle count for unvaccinated (which remains in the 35-40 range most places). This means it takes thousands of times less material to make an unvaccinated person a COVID "case" than a vaccinated person. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/bre... They constantly stealth-edit the page, so it's helpful to look at archived versions here: https://archive.is/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html https://archive.is/https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/hea... Here's an article about it: https://washingtonwatch.org/caught-red-handed-cdc-changes-test-thresholds-to-virtually-eliminate-new-covid-cases/ https://washingtonwatch.org/caught-red-handed-cdc-changes-te...