7 ms·

When I see someone on Facebook/Twitter link to a site like this to demonstrate that the person they’re arguing with is “doing a fallacy”, I just accuse them of

When I see someone on Facebook/Twitter link to a site like this to demonstrate that the person they’re arguing with is “doing a fallacy”, I just accuse them of Appeal To Authority. I feel like these kinds of sites are often just used to shut someone down by saying that they’re doing something wrong, without actually going through the work of following through with why the “fallacy” makes their argument weak. Also, in my experience fallacies/biases are often more indicative of a weak argument than a wrong one.

bradrn 5y ago
Well, if you really want to go this route, you can beat them at their own game and accuse them of Arguing From Fallacy. (A nice illustration: https://theupturnedmicroscope.com/comic/logical-fallacies-arguing-from-fallacy/ https://theupturnedmicroscope.com/comic/logical-fallacies-ar...) That being said, I do think it’s important to avoid fallacious reasoning — it helps in making arguments clearer. As mentioned above, just because someone uses a fallacy doesn’t mean their conclusion is wrong, but it does mean that you can prove their argument wrong. (And any reply should ideally be phrased in these terms: ‘your argument has problem X’ is easier to respond to than ‘your argument has fallacy Y’.) Furthermore it means they are thinking less clearly than they perhaps should be.
- netr0ute 5y ago
  The Fallacy Fallacy doesn't actually do anything because it is covered by itself and creates a loop.
  - entropicdrifter 5y ago
    I'd say the bigger problem is that it's roughly equivalent to saying, "Just because my argument is bad doesn't mean I'm wrong." I mean, yes, that's true, but you have yet to prove yourself correct, so why should anyone change their mind?
  - ElFitz 5y ago
    And that’s how you get a stack overflow. Always remember your exit condition when doing recursion, folks!
- lhorie 5y ago
  > accuse them of Arguing From Fallacy But then, you're just doing an ad hominem...
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    I know I am, but what... am... I?
  - entropicdrifter 5y ago
    That's not an ad hominem. You're attacking their argument, not them as a person. An ad hominem would be like saying, "Oh yeah, well you're an alcoholic", for instance, as though that could discredit their argument even if it were true.
- mistermann 5y ago
  > just because someone uses a fallacy doesn’t mean their conclusion is wrong, but it does mean that you can prove their argument wrong. One way this can go wrong is if the two people are thinking at different levels of abstraction or dimensionality (variables), especially when one or both participants don't understand what that means (which seems to be "most" people in the general public).
  - overboard2 5y ago
    What do you mean?
- eivarv 5y ago
  And by extension, fallacious reasoning means that you have no good reason to take what the reasoner is arguing as true (unless they can a non-fallacious argument) – right? The fact that an argument is fallacious doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion is wrong, but there does (logically, by necessity) exist (at least) a non-fallacious argument for a correct conclusion.
- gauravjain13 5y ago
  Yes, exactly this. It’s useful to understand biases: cognitive diversions from the truth. Echoing OP’s sentiment: How one uses/weaponizes such knowledge depends on one’s goals: to win petty ego battles in debate or seek the truth?
rtkwe 5y ago
Yeah I remember seeing a lot of people deploying the fallacy list(s) as an argumentative tool to say "ha! you're argument vaguely resembles this 'fallacy' so you're instantly wrong." It's a lot less now I think, they've fallen out of style I guess, or I'm just getting in/reading less pointless arguments.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  The lengths people will go to, to avoid thinking, is impressive.
- hsn915 5y ago
  I call this the "fallacy" fallacy.
magila 5y ago
IME cognitive bias has become a popular talking point among the left which is used to dismiss those who disagree with them. I.e. if you don't buy into identity politics and other "woke" views it's because you are succumbing to cognitive biases.
- npteljes 5y ago
  These biases are also played out as deliberate argument tactics, and they work really well, especially on those who can't detect it. Basically each of them is also guide how to be more persuasive, if you don't care about playing dirty.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Correct. Politicians deploy fallacious arguments all the time. Inserting fallacious arguments into speeches in such a way that they aren't obvious is part of basic political speechwriting. The task facing a politician is to build a cohesive coalition out of a bunch of people who don't really share much. Many of them couldn't distinguish a fallacy from an obscene act. Political speech is persuasive speech, and accurate reasoning is rarely persuasive.
- 411111111111111 5y ago
  People increasingly argue with fallacies, so it shouldn't come at a surprise that the frequency in which they're pointed out increases as well. Public discord really has taken a nosedive and I'm surprised you seem to be okay with people using fallacies to strengthen points. Their points might even be correct, but reflection gets increasingly harder the more you accept these fallacies as arguments. I'm often speechless how pretty influencial YouTubers/streamers wholeheartedly believe something based purely on fallacies. All the young viewers which aren't able to identify them most definitely become even more susceptible to this kind of logic, worsening the situation in the future.
- projektfu 5y ago
  That’s funny. I consider myself “left” but find these dismissive charges of bias deployed a lot by libertarian debaters.
teclordphrack2 5y ago
I ain't got time to teach you, so yeah, appeal to authority and teach yourself.
teachrdan 5y ago
It's a bit funny because Appeal to Authority isn't a fallacy. The actual fallacy is Appeal to Incorrect / False Authority: "An appeal to false authority is a fallacious argument that relies on the statements of a false authority figure, who is framed as a credible authority on the topic being discussed." https://effectiviology.com/false-authority/#:~:text=An%20appeal%20to%20false%20authority%20is%20a%20fallacious%20argument%20that,on%20the%20topic%20being%20discussed https://effectiviology.com/false-authority/#:~:text=An%20app....
- nostromo 5y ago
  > The actual fallacy ... according to linguistics researcher with a website. He sounds like as much a false authority on philosophy as anyone else.
  - entropicdrifter 5y ago
    From the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: 9. The ad verecundiam fallacy concerns appeals to authority or expertise. Fundamentally, the fallacy involves accepting as evidence for a proposition the pronouncement of someone who is taken to be an authority but is not really an authority. This can happen when non-experts parade as experts in fields in which they have no special competence—when, for example, celebrities endorse commercial products or social movements. Similarly, when there is controversy, and authorities are divided, it is an error to base one’s view on the authority of just some of them. (See also 2.4 below.) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/
  - tomcatfish 5y ago
    The point the parent was making is that citing authority isn't a bad thing to do. Citing authorities in _a different field_ often is, though. (Citing a doctor on the common cold is not a fallacy, but citing a doctor on global economics is)
    - nostromo 5y ago
      And in doing so they cited a linguist about philosophy. And it doesn’t matter anyway - thankfully we use science now and not philosophy to determine truth.
TeeMassive 5y ago
> When I see someone on Facebook/Twitter link to a site like this to demonstrate that the person they’re arguing with is “doing a fallacy”, I just accuse them of Appeal To Authority It's called the fallacy fallacy (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy) But yeah, pointing to websites like these, especially with no other explanation is annoying and pointless (although I have been a bit guilty of that too). Projection through accusation.
ElFitz 5y ago
Also, a cognitive bias isn’t necessarily a fallacy. It’s only a prism that deforms our perspective of the world. Fallacies are a different beast altogether.
damagednoob 5y ago
It also tends to derail the conversation and you end up arguing about fallacy definitions instead of the actual point.

bradrn 5y ago

Well, if you really want to go this route, you can beat them at their own game and accuse them of Arguing From Fallacy. (A nice illustration: https://theupturnedmicroscope.com/comic/logical-fallacies-arguing-from-fallacy/ https://theupturnedmicroscope.com/comic/logical-fallacies-ar...) That being said, I do think it’s important to avoid fallacious reasoning — it helps in making arguments clearer. As mentioned above, just because someone uses a fallacy doesn’t mean their conclusion is wrong, but it does mean that you can prove their argument wrong. (And any reply should ideally be phrased in these terms: ‘your argument has problem X’ is easier to respond to than ‘your argument has fallacy Y’.) Furthermore it means they are thinking less clearly than they perhaps should be.

netr0ute 5y ago
The Fallacy Fallacy doesn't actually do anything because it is covered by itself and creates a loop.
- entropicdrifter 5y ago
  I'd say the bigger problem is that it's roughly equivalent to saying, "Just because my argument is bad doesn't mean I'm wrong." I mean, yes, that's true, but you have yet to prove yourself correct, so why should anyone change their mind?
- ElFitz 5y ago
  And that’s how you get a stack overflow. Always remember your exit condition when doing recursion, folks!
lhorie 5y ago
> accuse them of Arguing From Fallacy But then, you're just doing an ad hominem...
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  I know I am, but what... am... I?
- entropicdrifter 5y ago
  That's not an ad hominem. You're attacking their argument, not them as a person. An ad hominem would be like saying, "Oh yeah, well you're an alcoholic", for instance, as though that could discredit their argument even if it were true.
mistermann 5y ago
> just because someone uses a fallacy doesn’t mean their conclusion is wrong, but it does mean that you can prove their argument wrong. One way this can go wrong is if the two people are thinking at different levels of abstraction or dimensionality (variables), especially when one or both participants don't understand what that means (which seems to be "most" people in the general public).
- overboard2 5y ago
  What do you mean?
eivarv 5y ago
And by extension, fallacious reasoning means that you have no good reason to take what the reasoner is arguing as true (unless they can a non-fallacious argument) – right? The fact that an argument is fallacious doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion is wrong, but there does (logically, by necessity) exist (at least) a non-fallacious argument for a correct conclusion.
gauravjain13 5y ago
Yes, exactly this. It’s useful to understand biases: cognitive diversions from the truth. Echoing OP’s sentiment: How one uses/weaponizes such knowledge depends on one’s goals: to win petty ego battles in debate or seek the truth?

rtkwe 5y ago

Yeah I remember seeing a lot of people deploying the fallacy list(s) as an argumentative tool to say "ha! you're argument vaguely resembles this 'fallacy' so you're instantly wrong." It's a lot less now I think, they've fallen out of style I guess, or I'm just getting in/reading less pointless arguments.

imwillofficial 5y ago
The lengths people will go to, to avoid thinking, is impressive.
hsn915 5y ago
I call this the "fallacy" fallacy.

magila 5y ago

IME cognitive bias has become a popular talking point among the left which is used to dismiss those who disagree with them. I.e. if you don't buy into identity politics and other "woke" views it's because you are succumbing to cognitive biases.

npteljes 5y ago
These biases are also played out as deliberate argument tactics, and they work really well, especially on those who can't detect it. Basically each of them is also guide how to be more persuasive, if you don't care about playing dirty.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Correct. Politicians deploy fallacious arguments all the time. Inserting fallacious arguments into speeches in such a way that they aren't obvious is part of basic political speechwriting. The task facing a politician is to build a cohesive coalition out of a bunch of people who don't really share much. Many of them couldn't distinguish a fallacy from an obscene act. Political speech is persuasive speech, and accurate reasoning is rarely persuasive.
411111111111111 5y ago
People increasingly argue with fallacies, so it shouldn't come at a surprise that the frequency in which they're pointed out increases as well. Public discord really has taken a nosedive and I'm surprised you seem to be okay with people using fallacies to strengthen points. Their points might even be correct, but reflection gets increasingly harder the more you accept these fallacies as arguments. I'm often speechless how pretty influencial YouTubers/streamers wholeheartedly believe something based purely on fallacies. All the young viewers which aren't able to identify them most definitely become even more susceptible to this kind of logic, worsening the situation in the future.
projektfu 5y ago
That’s funny. I consider myself “left” but find these dismissive charges of bias deployed a lot by libertarian debaters.

teclordphrack2 5y ago

I ain't got time to teach you, so yeah, appeal to authority and teach yourself.

teachrdan 5y ago

It's a bit funny because Appeal to Authority isn't a fallacy. The actual fallacy is Appeal to Incorrect / False Authority: "An appeal to false authority is a fallacious argument that relies on the statements of a false authority figure, who is framed as a credible authority on the topic being discussed." https://effectiviology.com/false-authority/#:~:text=An%20appeal%20to%20false%20authority%20is%20a%20fallacious%20argument%20that,on%20the%20topic%20being%20discussed https://effectiviology.com/false-authority/#:~:text=An%20app....

nostromo 5y ago
> The actual fallacy ... according to linguistics researcher with a website. He sounds like as much a false authority on philosophy as anyone else.
- entropicdrifter 5y ago
  From the Standford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: 9. The ad verecundiam fallacy concerns appeals to authority or expertise. Fundamentally, the fallacy involves accepting as evidence for a proposition the pronouncement of someone who is taken to be an authority but is not really an authority. This can happen when non-experts parade as experts in fields in which they have no special competence—when, for example, celebrities endorse commercial products or social movements. Similarly, when there is controversy, and authorities are divided, it is an error to base one’s view on the authority of just some of them. (See also 2.4 below.) https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fallacies/
- tomcatfish 5y ago
  The point the parent was making is that citing authority isn't a bad thing to do. Citing authorities in _a different field_ often is, though. (Citing a doctor on the common cold is not a fallacy, but citing a doctor on global economics is)
  - nostromo 5y ago
    And in doing so they cited a linguist about philosophy. And it doesn’t matter anyway - thankfully we use science now and not philosophy to determine truth.

TeeMassive 5y ago

> When I see someone on Facebook/Twitter link to a site like this to demonstrate that the person they’re arguing with is “doing a fallacy”, I just accuse them of Appeal To Authority It's called the fallacy fallacy (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy) But yeah, pointing to websites like these, especially with no other explanation is annoying and pointless (although I have been a bit guilty of that too). Projection through accusation.

ElFitz 5y ago

Also, a cognitive bias isn’t necessarily a fallacy. It’s only a prism that deforms our perspective of the world. Fallacies are a different beast altogether.

damagednoob 5y ago

It also tends to derail the conversation and you end up arguing about fallacy definitions instead of the actual point.