9 ms·

The First Delta Force Trainee Class

58 points by stanrivers 5y ago

colinb 5y ago
There's something more than a little gross in reading that Delta Force (gotta love self-aggrandizing names. I suppose Hep-Cat-with-Guns was rejected out of hand.) was inspired by the British campaign in the Malaya Emergency[0], which seems to have set the modern standard for blood-soaked, torture-ridden "counter-insurgency" warfare. The Wikipedia page [1] references on event as the "British Mai Lai". But it happened in 1948, decades before the Mai Lai [2] massacre. N.B. I'm expressly not saying that there's anything uniquely wicked about British or American soldiers, many of whom seem to be decent sorts, doing jobs that I could not. But the mythos of so-called elite forces is a giant stinking vat of horse pickles, and always was. (Bret Devereaux's material about the Spartans seems like proof enough [3]) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batang_Kali_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batang_Kali_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre [3] https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/ https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/
- weimerica 5y ago
  I do believe the thing you’re missing with Western forces is that the events listed were aberrations rather than the norm. Also, should you not like “Delta,” and frankly I don’t see how a Greek letter is aggrandizing, you could always go with “CAG.” Last, what you’re claiming is neither discussed in TFA nor supported by historical record. CAG was created as a result of European terrorist hostage events.
  - colinb 5y ago
    Hey. Thanks for your response. Greek letters first. I’m not particularly knowledgeable of American military nomenclature. Where there Alpha, Beta, and Gamma forces first? “Delta” suggests small but vitally important difference to me; think calculus or mechanics (delta-vee FTW). Perhaps my inner nerd is getting the better of me, and I’m reading things into the name that weren’t present in the mind of the originator. Where these aberrations? Maybe. It seems logical to me that for every outrage gaining notoriety, there are N more that escape attention. My own father said he saw plenty of brutality against civilians while fighting in the British army in North Africa and later Burma (now Myanmar obvs). It has been 50 years since tens of thousands of Catholic refugees crossed the border between the UK and Ireland. It was soldiers and policemen they were fleeing from. Britain had its dirty wars in Malaya, Oman, and Kenya (with some convenient record destruction for the latter). The US seems to have covered itself with less than glory in the prisons of Baghdad, and the black sites in Poland and elsewhere. France’s record in North African is pretty ugly. Italy dealt brutally with Ethiopia. The Russians raped there way to Berlin (yes, and fought bravely against the Nazis). Maybe aberrations aren’t as aberrant after all. I’m not here to draw (false) equivalence between Delta/the Paras/whatever and the Nazis. But I stand by the idea that there’s something odd about professional soldiering. And not everyone who does it is in the business for there love of democracy and the flag! People who kill other people in the furtherance of national goals, rather than in direct defence of their homes need extra attention, and extra love sometimes, but always extra vigilance.
    - fidesomnes 5y ago
      You're a fool and should probably just shut up.
    - danielvf 5y ago
      When Delta was founded, the US Special Forces were broken down into three team types. Alpha Team - (or A-team) was a group of 12 men who would operate in the behind enemy lines together. Bravo detachment - A similarly sized headquarters group of men who would stay behind and support and communicate with multiple A-teams. (Sort of like a NASA mission control team) Charlie detachment - An overall administrative headquarters team over multiple A and B groups. When a new form of special forces was organized with a different focus for the team's capabilities, they just grabbed the next word in the Nato phonetic alphabet - Delta.
      - stanrivers 5y ago
        This is new information for me; very cool; I assumed there had to be a reason. What's your background in the subject matter? To the gentleman's post above, it does seem to me that Delta has a more negative public image as compared to say the Navy Seals... is there any specific reason for that? or do you disagree with that comment?
        runjake 5y ago
        This is in the book the post is about.
        t_away_987324 5y ago
        Source: I am not an operator nor ex-military, but my line of work lets me interact with a bunch of ex-SOF guys. It's interesting you say that, as my understanding is that the perception is flipped within the SOF community. Most of the guys I've spoken with have nothing but positive things to say about people from Delta. On the other hand, at least two Rangers have told me that they were explicitly told to stay away from the SEALs (specifically, Team 6) when deployed together. As I understand it, the average age in Delta is significantly higher than that of the operators in SEAL Team 6 and that has something to do with it.
- ozi 5y ago
  delta force is short for "1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta"
- jl2718 5y ago
  I’ve never heard one of them use the word “delta” except in radio phonetics.
shrugitoff 5y ago
All across the world The holy armies on a tear Ripping through the planet's faiths Population's running scared Christianity's all around Zealots they abound I wanna blow them to pieces Cause I...I'm Killing for jesus
danielvf 5y ago
When we were teens, my brother and I "invited" a very quiet, ex-Delta Force gentleman over to our woods to play paintball against us. We weren't entirely smart, but figured he'd join the other loud mouth, overconfident, just out of airborne school soldiers we'd had over, and he would end up with a big splat of yellow paint in the middle of his facemask a few times. We were bit cocky. "Sure", he said. "One two conditions." Pause. "There's no time limit, and no boundaries." Pause for a beat. "I'm going to run off and lie dog for three days. Then I'll get up. Hunt you down. Kill you." In that moment I achieved enlightenment. Maybe the reason that some people or groups could do far more than others was not some special gifted super-power, but the willingness to put in unthinkable amounts off work for the slightest edge in advantage. Stack this up across all possible advantages, and the results would look impossible. If you want to read about the Delta Force, I highly recommend the slim book "Leadership and Training for the Fight" by Paul Rowe[0]. It's not technically a history of anything, but it lets you live inside the head of someone with a very different way of viewing the world - almost an alien mindset, and see how they solve problems and function. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Training-Fight-Operations-Enforcement/dp/1616083042/ https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Training-Fight-Operations-...
- stanrivers 5y ago
  Interesting perspective / story; from a work-life perspective, it does seem that those that win, take a lot more low risk, low probability, high pay-off shots. It's all about how you can setup the odds to be in your favor if you are willing to work that extra x%. Here it's the same thing - spending extra effort waiting for the right moment to happen. He would not be just waiting for 3 days to just wait. He is waiting to get that lucky chance when the odds are in his favor. Interesting short story.
- didgeoridoo 5y ago
  Reminds me of the Teller (from Penn & Teller) quote: "Sometimes magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect."
  - stanrivers 5y ago
pram 5y ago
I was aircrew in the USAF and I saw Pararescue and SERE instructor training. That stuff is absolutely insane and sadistic. Even then, at the top of my physical fitness/ability, I wouldn’t have been able to cut it. The endurance and stamina required is just unreal. The majority of those classes wash out too. It’s high pain and high risk from the beginning. I can’t imagine going a step beyond and training for the special forces of the special forces, haha
danso 5y ago
The book Black Hawk Down has a lot about the Delta Force culture, especially in relation to the Rangers they worked with.
- stanrivers 5y ago
  Do you have a summary of the culture? I hear mixed things, but I wonder how much of that is just a requirement of the jobs that they do needing to be performed by certain personalities
  - newsclues 5y ago
    Delta selects for intelligent, physically fit individuals who don’t know how to quit. Less team, more solo capable war fighters who can plan, then adapt and overcome.
- ryanmarsh 5y ago
  Bowden got the culture wrong.
- jl2718 5y ago
  I didn’t read the book (probably should), but I worked with a few of them personally in my second OEF tour. Well, as well as you can if you weren’t in it with them. The thing is, they don’t talk. They call themselves “quiet professionals”. (We had some seals on the team too. They tend to be a bit more open.) When the deltas from Gothic Serpent told the story, it was extremely detailed and factual and emotionless, pretty much like all of our debriefs. (There is no book authorized from the deltas.) I remember at the end for lessons learned, the NCO focused on water management / preventing dehydration in disconnected combat operations, presumably because that was the one simple thing that could have increased effectiveness.
h2odragon 5y ago
"You haven't failed until you stop trying" or "Failure is a choice" ... There's lots of other phrasings of that, still good advice.
- curiousgal 5y ago
  Cutting your losses is also a valid advice. Sunk cost fallacy and what not.
  - eschulz 5y ago
    Yes it is good advice for big picture decision making. However, cutting your losses due to small bumps in the road will certainly keep success out of reach. Large orgs like the US military need some people who clearly understand that quitting is not an option until they are ordered to do so.
ransom1538 5y ago
I only know one story of "delta force" from my friend in the military. My friend got a crappy shift stationed at a small exit gate on a base in Iraq. It was around 2am and 4 atvs were trying to leave the base with duffel bags. These people on atvs had no badges in a black unmarked uniform with balaclavas on. My friend kept the gate closed. They spoke down to him yelling at him to open the gate in some kind of hurry. They refused to show any orders. My friend took his machine gun and pointed it at the first guys forehead. These guys were not leaving and were about to get shot. He had shot people before at the gate and he moved his index finger onto the trigger. My friend demanded to know what was in the duffel bags, see orders and ignored his radio. The men on atvs demanded him to answer his radio. My friend was getting ready to open fire. The first guy on the atv saw this wasn't going well - tried to calm things down - and opened a duffel bag. It was cash. 4 atvs carrying 20+ duffel bags of cash. Luckily for my friend, he finally answered his radio, and it was the base commander ordering him to let the atvs out of the gate. He let them go. The 4 atvs drove off into the night with duffels of cash. He referred to them as "spookes" - and this scenario was quite common after that.
- koolba 5y ago
  This would be a great opener for a Jason Statham movie.
- stanrivers 5y ago
  So, do we know what they were doing with all that cash?
  - yann2 5y ago
    Taking care of the Pit - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pentagon-budget-mystery-807276/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pent...
  - t_away_987324 5y ago
    This likely was a mix of CIA and SOF personnel; could be cash for informants or all sorts of other wacky stuff.
simonebrunozzi 5y ago
I've been curious about the Delta Force for a while, and I am wondering if there's some sort of training available for civilians that could give you at least a glimpse of the preparation they go through. I'm sure there are many, but I've never heard anything particularly good about one in particular. Any suggestions based on personal experience? To be clear: main reason I'm interested in this is simply because it's the kind of preparation that could help you in case you find yourself in a very rare, but potentially lethal, situation (e.g. someone attacking you with a knife in a dead alley, or stuff like this - not the best example but you get the idea).
- zdkl 5y ago
  Unless the situation you want to prepare is in/exfiltration of 30+miles of unfriendly territory, stuff like judo/jujitsu/... will be more immediately useful in real life situations. Less badass though, granted.
- molsongolden 5y ago
  krav maga is the path here.
- gadders 5y ago
  From what I've read, although they do hand to hand combat it's not very highly prioritised compared to being good with a gun and shooting people.
- repeek 5y ago
  Check out GORUCK events. They're led by former special forces cadre. https://www.goruckevents.com/ https://www.goruckevents.com/
- Swizec 5y ago
  > (e.g. someone attacking you with a knife in a dead alley, or stuff like this - not the best example but you get the idea). Run away. Seriously, it’s the best most reliable defence against a knife. They don’t show this in the movies but a successful defense against a knife attack still leaves you very cut up. Just not dead, maybe. I’ve been doing a martial art for 10 years and the main thing I learned is never to be a badass IRL. Doesn’t matter how good you are or how much better than the other person, you will get hit and it’s not worth it. Especially when there’s no rules – one good punch to the back of your neck/head and you’re a vegetable.
ghufran_syed 5y ago
Eric Haney’s book is great, another one along the same lines is “Quiet soldier” by Adam Ballinger, about a guy who did selection and trained with the part-time (Territorial Army) SAS battalion.
mgarfias 5y ago
F Eric haney (just passing along the feelings of a buddy that was with CAG for a time)

58 points by stanrivers 5y ago

There's something more than a little gross in reading that Delta Force (gotta love self-aggrandizing names. I suppose Hep-Cat-with-Guns was rejected out of hand.) was inspired by the British campaign in the Malaya Emergency[0], which seems to have set the modern standard for blood-soaked, torture-ridden "counter-insurgency" warfare. The Wikipedia page [1] references on event as the "British Mai Lai". But it happened in 1948, decades before the Mai Lai [2] massacre. N.B. I'm expressly not saying that there's anything uniquely wicked about British or American soldiers, many of whom seem to be decent sorts, doing jobs that I could not. But the mythos of so-called elite forces is a giant stinking vat of horse pickles, and always was. (Bret Devereaux's material about the Spartans seems like proof enough [3]) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayan_Emergency [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batang_Kali_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batang_Kali_massacre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mỹ_Lai_massacre [3] https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/ https://acoup.blog/category/collections/this-isnt-sparta/

weimerica 5y ago
I do believe the thing you’re missing with Western forces is that the events listed were aberrations rather than the norm. Also, should you not like “Delta,” and frankly I don’t see how a Greek letter is aggrandizing, you could always go with “CAG.” Last, what you’re claiming is neither discussed in TFA nor supported by historical record. CAG was created as a result of European terrorist hostage events.
- colinb 5y ago
  Hey. Thanks for your response. Greek letters first. I’m not particularly knowledgeable of American military nomenclature. Where there Alpha, Beta, and Gamma forces first? “Delta” suggests small but vitally important difference to me; think calculus or mechanics (delta-vee FTW). Perhaps my inner nerd is getting the better of me, and I’m reading things into the name that weren’t present in the mind of the originator. Where these aberrations? Maybe. It seems logical to me that for every outrage gaining notoriety, there are N more that escape attention. My own father said he saw plenty of brutality against civilians while fighting in the British army in North Africa and later Burma (now Myanmar obvs). It has been 50 years since tens of thousands of Catholic refugees crossed the border between the UK and Ireland. It was soldiers and policemen they were fleeing from. Britain had its dirty wars in Malaya, Oman, and Kenya (with some convenient record destruction for the latter). The US seems to have covered itself with less than glory in the prisons of Baghdad, and the black sites in Poland and elsewhere. France’s record in North African is pretty ugly. Italy dealt brutally with Ethiopia. The Russians raped there way to Berlin (yes, and fought bravely against the Nazis). Maybe aberrations aren’t as aberrant after all. I’m not here to draw (false) equivalence between Delta/the Paras/whatever and the Nazis. But I stand by the idea that there’s something odd about professional soldiering. And not everyone who does it is in the business for there love of democracy and the flag! People who kill other people in the furtherance of national goals, rather than in direct defence of their homes need extra attention, and extra love sometimes, but always extra vigilance.
  - fidesomnes 5y ago
    You're a fool and should probably just shut up.
  - danielvf 5y ago
    When Delta was founded, the US Special Forces were broken down into three team types. Alpha Team - (or A-team) was a group of 12 men who would operate in the behind enemy lines together. Bravo detachment - A similarly sized headquarters group of men who would stay behind and support and communicate with multiple A-teams. (Sort of like a NASA mission control team) Charlie detachment - An overall administrative headquarters team over multiple A and B groups. When a new form of special forces was organized with a different focus for the team's capabilities, they just grabbed the next word in the Nato phonetic alphabet - Delta.
    - stanrivers 5y ago
      This is new information for me; very cool; I assumed there had to be a reason. What's your background in the subject matter? To the gentleman's post above, it does seem to me that Delta has a more negative public image as compared to say the Navy Seals... is there any specific reason for that? or do you disagree with that comment?
      - runjake 5y ago
        This is in the book the post is about.
      - t_away_987324 5y ago
        Source: I am not an operator nor ex-military, but my line of work lets me interact with a bunch of ex-SOF guys. It's interesting you say that, as my understanding is that the perception is flipped within the SOF community. Most of the guys I've spoken with have nothing but positive things to say about people from Delta. On the other hand, at least two Rangers have told me that they were explicitly told to stay away from the SEALs (specifically, Team 6) when deployed together. As I understand it, the average age in Delta is significantly higher than that of the operators in SEAL Team 6 and that has something to do with it.
ozi 5y ago
delta force is short for "1st Special Forces Operational Detachment–Delta"
jl2718 5y ago
I’ve never heard one of them use the word “delta” except in radio phonetics.

shrugitoff 5y ago

All across the world The holy armies on a tear Ripping through the planet's faiths Population's running scared Christianity's all around Zealots they abound I wanna blow them to pieces Cause I...I'm Killing for jesus

danielvf 5y ago

When we were teens, my brother and I "invited" a very quiet, ex-Delta Force gentleman over to our woods to play paintball against us. We weren't entirely smart, but figured he'd join the other loud mouth, overconfident, just out of airborne school soldiers we'd had over, and he would end up with a big splat of yellow paint in the middle of his facemask a few times. We were bit cocky. "Sure", he said. "One two conditions." Pause. "There's no time limit, and no boundaries." Pause for a beat. "I'm going to run off and lie dog for three days. Then I'll get up. Hunt you down. Kill you." In that moment I achieved enlightenment. Maybe the reason that some people or groups could do far more than others was not some special gifted super-power, but the willingness to put in unthinkable amounts off work for the slightest edge in advantage. Stack this up across all possible advantages, and the results would look impossible. If you want to read about the Delta Force, I highly recommend the slim book "Leadership and Training for the Fight" by Paul Rowe[0]. It's not technically a history of anything, but it lets you live inside the head of someone with a very different way of viewing the world - almost an alien mindset, and see how they solve problems and function. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Training-Fight-Operations-Enforcement/dp/1616083042/ https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Training-Fight-Operations-...

stanrivers 5y ago
Interesting perspective / story; from a work-life perspective, it does seem that those that win, take a lot more low risk, low probability, high pay-off shots. It's all about how you can setup the odds to be in your favor if you are willing to work that extra x%. Here it's the same thing - spending extra effort waiting for the right moment to happen. He would not be just waiting for 3 days to just wait. He is waiting to get that lucky chance when the odds are in his favor. Interesting short story.
didgeoridoo 5y ago
Reminds me of the Teller (from Penn & Teller) quote: "Sometimes magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect."
- stanrivers 5y ago

pram 5y ago

I was aircrew in the USAF and I saw Pararescue and SERE instructor training. That stuff is absolutely insane and sadistic. Even then, at the top of my physical fitness/ability, I wouldn’t have been able to cut it. The endurance and stamina required is just unreal. The majority of those classes wash out too. It’s high pain and high risk from the beginning. I can’t imagine going a step beyond and training for the special forces of the special forces, haha

danso 5y ago

The book Black Hawk Down has a lot about the Delta Force culture, especially in relation to the Rangers they worked with.

stanrivers 5y ago
Do you have a summary of the culture? I hear mixed things, but I wonder how much of that is just a requirement of the jobs that they do needing to be performed by certain personalities
- newsclues 5y ago
  Delta selects for intelligent, physically fit individuals who don’t know how to quit. Less team, more solo capable war fighters who can plan, then adapt and overcome.
ryanmarsh 5y ago
Bowden got the culture wrong.
jl2718 5y ago
I didn’t read the book (probably should), but I worked with a few of them personally in my second OEF tour. Well, as well as you can if you weren’t in it with them. The thing is, they don’t talk. They call themselves “quiet professionals”. (We had some seals on the team too. They tend to be a bit more open.) When the deltas from Gothic Serpent told the story, it was extremely detailed and factual and emotionless, pretty much like all of our debriefs. (There is no book authorized from the deltas.) I remember at the end for lessons learned, the NCO focused on water management / preventing dehydration in disconnected combat operations, presumably because that was the one simple thing that could have increased effectiveness.

h2odragon 5y ago

"You haven't failed until you stop trying" or "Failure is a choice" ... There's lots of other phrasings of that, still good advice.

curiousgal 5y ago
Cutting your losses is also a valid advice. Sunk cost fallacy and what not.
- eschulz 5y ago
  Yes it is good advice for big picture decision making. However, cutting your losses due to small bumps in the road will certainly keep success out of reach. Large orgs like the US military need some people who clearly understand that quitting is not an option until they are ordered to do so.

ransom1538 5y ago

I only know one story of "delta force" from my friend in the military. My friend got a crappy shift stationed at a small exit gate on a base in Iraq. It was around 2am and 4 atvs were trying to leave the base with duffel bags. These people on atvs had no badges in a black unmarked uniform with balaclavas on. My friend kept the gate closed. They spoke down to him yelling at him to open the gate in some kind of hurry. They refused to show any orders. My friend took his machine gun and pointed it at the first guys forehead. These guys were not leaving and were about to get shot. He had shot people before at the gate and he moved his index finger onto the trigger. My friend demanded to know what was in the duffel bags, see orders and ignored his radio. The men on atvs demanded him to answer his radio. My friend was getting ready to open fire. The first guy on the atv saw this wasn't going well - tried to calm things down - and opened a duffel bag. It was cash. 4 atvs carrying 20+ duffel bags of cash. Luckily for my friend, he finally answered his radio, and it was the base commander ordering him to let the atvs out of the gate. He let them go. The 4 atvs drove off into the night with duffels of cash. He referred to them as "spookes" - and this scenario was quite common after that.

koolba 5y ago
This would be a great opener for a Jason Statham movie.
stanrivers 5y ago
So, do we know what they were doing with all that cash?
- yann2 5y ago
  Taking care of the Pit - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pentagon-budget-mystery-807276/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/pent...
- t_away_987324 5y ago
  This likely was a mix of CIA and SOF personnel; could be cash for informants or all sorts of other wacky stuff.

simonebrunozzi 5y ago

I've been curious about the Delta Force for a while, and I am wondering if there's some sort of training available for civilians that could give you at least a glimpse of the preparation they go through. I'm sure there are many, but I've never heard anything particularly good about one in particular. Any suggestions based on personal experience? To be clear: main reason I'm interested in this is simply because it's the kind of preparation that could help you in case you find yourself in a very rare, but potentially lethal, situation (e.g. someone attacking you with a knife in a dead alley, or stuff like this - not the best example but you get the idea).

zdkl 5y ago
Unless the situation you want to prepare is in/exfiltration of 30+miles of unfriendly territory, stuff like judo/jujitsu/... will be more immediately useful in real life situations. Less badass though, granted.
molsongolden 5y ago
krav maga is the path here.
gadders 5y ago
From what I've read, although they do hand to hand combat it's not very highly prioritised compared to being good with a gun and shooting people.
repeek 5y ago
Check out GORUCK events. They're led by former special forces cadre. https://www.goruckevents.com/ https://www.goruckevents.com/
Swizec 5y ago
> (e.g. someone attacking you with a knife in a dead alley, or stuff like this - not the best example but you get the idea). Run away. Seriously, it’s the best most reliable defence against a knife. They don’t show this in the movies but a successful defense against a knife attack still leaves you very cut up. Just not dead, maybe. I’ve been doing a martial art for 10 years and the main thing I learned is never to be a badass IRL. Doesn’t matter how good you are or how much better than the other person, you will get hit and it’s not worth it. Especially when there’s no rules – one good punch to the back of your neck/head and you’re a vegetable.

ghufran_syed 5y ago

Eric Haney’s book is great, another one along the same lines is “Quiet soldier” by Adam Ballinger, about a guy who did selection and trained with the part-time (Territorial Army) SAS battalion.

mgarfias 5y ago

F Eric haney (just passing along the feelings of a buddy that was with CAG for a time)