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Bitcoin could be the undoing of the regime. It will allow Cubans to accumulate wealth that the regime cannot seize or convert into another worthless Cuban domes

Bitcoin could be the undoing of the regime. It will allow Cubans to accumulate wealth that the regime cannot seize or convert into another worthless Cuban domestic currency. While I like the idea of free health care and education, the idea that a brain surgeon gets paid same as a street cleaner is absurd. Cuba is a series of failed experiments.

arcticbull 5y ago
> While I like the idea of free health care and education, the idea that a brain surgeon gets paid same as a street cleaner is absurd. I personally support wealth and income inequality when coupled with social mobility (and a high standard of living at the low end). With that in mind, why do you think it's absurd for both a street cleaner and a brain surgeon to enjoy a middle class lifestyle? I think we both agree neither should be dirt poor, but of course, that's not the only option. I cannot, for one, think of a solid justification. Both do something important, necessary even, and both benefit society at large. This comes up frequently here when folks balk at Canadian software engineering wages, which are by Canadian standards solid middle class wages. Compared to America it can be a "pittance" but of course, Canada has much lower wealth and income inequality - and it's because there's a much tighter band of compensation. Fun stuff to think about.
- moonchrome 5y ago
  > I cannot, for one, think of a solid justification. Really ? Any person without a severe physical disabilities can be a street cleaner - you need very low incentives to generate people capable. Surgeons take like a decade of training and a small % of the population is even capable of becoming one and there's a demand for their skills. Software developers create output that potentially has a very non-linear return. Few 1000 people can create software used by billions daily. A few people can develop software that manages billions of $ of assets.
  - pineaux 5y ago
    actually, statistics prove you wrong. Cuba pays surgeons roughly the same as streetcleaners but they have twice the amount of specualists per 100.000, compared to the united states (1). If you look at countries that have (almost) free education (like cuba), you see that these countries have similar numbers of physicians/specialists per 100.000 people. These facts tend to show that the main factor for having "enough" surgeons has nothing or little to do with pay and mostly with opportunity (free) and capability. As an interesting sidenote, I'd like to point out that the high salaries of surgeons in the US help to prevent people from going into surgery. Another point is that if you go into surgery for the money, I think you have the wrong incentives to be the best surgeon. (1) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.SAOP.P5?view=map&year=2014 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.SAOP.P5?view=map...
    - moonchrome 5y ago
      Haha I've lived in a post communist country - if you believe for one second that a surgeon and street cleaner have the same compensation you are extremely naive. The artificial restrictions on direct pay just get transformed into other things. I've listened to Yoel Romero talk about their Olympic program, how the children in the camp would get more food if they performed better in training and they would pit each other aginst one another to promote competition. You think the kids participate because they wanted to compete in the Olympics ? He could have just cleaned the streets and make the same as a surgeon...
- tenuousemphasis 5y ago
  It's absurd because one profession takes a lot more time, skill, and dedication to become proficient than the other.
- kortilla 5y ago
  > Canada has much lower wealth and income inequality - and it's because there's a much tighter band of compensation. I can’t fathom pointing to a market that cannot compete globally (Canada’s software engineering job market) and somehow thinking it’s impressive. Knocking everyone down to achieve equality is not desirable. I’m more interested in approaches that provide safety nets and mobility upward. Not ones that eliminate the paths upward.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > I’m more interested in approaches that provide safety nets and mobility upward. Not ones that eliminate the paths upward. To be clear this is my opinion also. I'm not saying Canada's engineering market is impressive, just that this is the context in which this conversation comes up on HN. My question was posed as a platonic thought exercise.
  - uniqueid 5y ago
    Knocking everyone down to achieve equality is not desirable. Not desirable in terms of average income, just desirable for the majority of citizens.
    - kortilla 5y ago
      No it’s not. Most of the citizens that desire this think it will achieve them some income or social safety net. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/msnbc-math-mike-bloomberg-one-million-dollars https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/msnbc-ma... The fact that a news anchor didn’t realize that was complete bullshit is an example of how mistaken people are about what “making the rich pay” will accomplish.
      - uniqueid 5y ago
        If I had to choose living with the average income of any nation, obviously I'd consider the US. If I had to swap lives with a random citizen of any nation, it certainly would not be the US. I don't like the odds that I'd find myself incarcerated for shoplifting groceries, or living in a tent city, or crapping in a donut box in the back of an Amazon delivery van, or prostituting my ass to pay for insulin.
- riffraff 5y ago
  Some common arguments for the wealth inequality: The surgeon will have spent many years studying while the street cleaner can just get started tomorrow. The surgeon has responsibilities the cleaner does not. Finally, given equal pay, people may not want to do unpleasant jobs: I'd rather be a poet than a trash collector. But on the other hand it's somewhat hard to justify someone earning many orders of magnitude more than others.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    > The surgeon will have spent many years studying while the street cleaner can just get started tomorrow. Indeed but if it is paid for by the government then what difference does it make? I would rather work my ass off as a SWE than collect garbage even if I'm getting paid the same amount, however that's just me. I suspect it's you too, if you're honest with yourself. As as for poetry, this is my argument for UBI. Go for it, IMO, poetry has societal value. > The surgeon has responsibilities the cleaner does not. [edit] This is true, and also a surgeon generates value through the people they save. I can get behind that. Thanks for entertaining my thought exercise :)
    - readthenotes1 5y ago
      "As as for poetry, this is my argument for UBI. Go for it, IMO, poetry has societal value." I am a poet on the dole. I tell you, it is good for the soul. I forego prosody for perspicacity, smoke your weed and blow profundity. You could be me if you dared. Give poet your tax money, you declared.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        Based on that poem alone, I consider my tax dollars well spent. Cheers.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  It is absurd because societies which do not restrict pay like that will outcompete societies that do restrict pay like that. Your brain surgeons will leave and you will be left with the other guy. Which may be fine for you but many Americans do not want that and consequently find things that would bring that about absurd.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Canada has excellent brain surgeons. The reality is immigration isn't as simple as picking up and wandering across a border. There's nativism, protectionism and of course the ties that keep you bound to your local community. Friends, family, shops, restaurants, a house. If I told you that I would pay you 30% more to move to Kansas, would you? Why, and why not? Further, why isn't every brain surgeon in America located in NY, SF and LA? Broadly, America has a pretty bad healthcare system, ranked somewhere in the mid-20s globally. The vast majority of the healthcare systems ranked higher than America are socialized - somewhere between single payer and two tier. With capped pay. Why aren't all those doctors in America? Why isn't every software engineer in the Bay Area currently located in Seattle and Texas? It's really not that simple.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      My family has medical professionals in Canada. I can assure you your surgeons aren’t being paid anywhere near your rubbish disposal people. If they are, then my family is probably all at the 99th percentile of surgeons and at the 99th percentile of family doctors. So naturally I am unsurprised that Canadian neurosurgeons are good. If they’re anything like other surgical specialties they’re probably also making bank. Or maybe they’re not and my extended family is a bunch of superhumans. Berkeley alone has as many Nobel Prize winners as Canada entire. That’s the kind of society we build here. Winners. And sometimes there’s a price we will pay for that (we’ll have some losers). EDIT: Pay your doctors what you pay your street cleaners and you’ll see what they do. They won’t stay in Canada for that. Oh and sorry about the edit style responses. I have hit my comment rate limit. I guess my simple response to the rest is “show me the code”. No one does this thing except authoritarian regimes limiting emigration. If it is so good, show us.
- stale2002 5y ago
  > why do you think it's absurd for both a street cleaner and a brain surgeon Because a brain surgeon requires a vastly larger amount of money, effort, training, and time to achieve their skill set. Much less people would spend all of these resources, and time, becoming brain surgeons, if it was as lowly paid as much easier jobs. > This comes up frequently here when folks balk at Canadian software engineering wages I mean, ok. But if you don't care about this mismatch, then don't compain when a large amount of engineers in canada flee for better prospects elsewhere. |
  - anonymousDan 5y ago
    Then just make the cost of training free only for those that stay in the country.
    - stale2002 5y ago
      What, are countries going to put ankle bracelets on every highly trained individual? Country wide prevention of people fleeing a country for better prospects rarely works. These types of authoritarian lockdowns just don't work in the long term. What, do you ban people from going on vacation in other countries? Do you ban traveling entirely? You can't stop people from leaving, if they can do those things.
      - anonymousDan 5y ago
        That's a bit of a straw man argument. No need for anything so extreme. People are legally required to pay back the funding. If they don't then they will be arrested on return to the country. There are many similar schemes in place to enforce military service for example. As another example the US requires citizens living abroad to pay taxes. Of course some may choose to ignore it but given family ties etc I would wager in many cases the proportion would be small.
        stale2002 5y ago
        > If they don't then they will be arrested on return to the country. A nationwide scheme to arrest people who leave the country, merely because they have in demand skills is absurd. You are not going to be able to arrest people, who have in demand skills or prevent them from fleeing the country. Like, what does that even mean? For how long do people have to be slaves to the nation? People move countries all the time, and the idea that one is now going to be arrested for something that is perfectly normal and common is absurd. What, is it just now illegal for people in a nation to ever spend time working outside of the country? Do you understand how ridiculous that is, to prevent people from leaving or working outside the country, forever? > As another example the US requires citizens living abroad to pay taxes. The most powerful country in the world can get away with this, yes. But a smaller nation isn't going to be able to have enforced prevention of high skilled labors leaving the country.
- dougSF70 5y ago
  Yes they do benefit society but in different ways. My own bias is that I approach the subject of compensation from a capitalist economy. If I were the brain surgeon in Cuba (and I have met one when I visited) I would be using my skills and abilities to improve my quality of life since the $30 / month standard wage in Cuba doesn't provide for much. The street cleaner is probably thinking and doing the same thing.
oraphalous 5y ago
If the experiment was to defy U.S. hegemony and see if your outcomes improve - then yeah, it's a failure.
notsureaboutpg 5y ago
I think the 21st century has shown that this "The End of History" thinking where liberal democracies are the ultimate final form of all nations to be false. Brain drain (the noveau riche of Cuba's Bitcoin scene will of course leave to other countries) leads to more security for charismatic leaders who can exercise more authority with less resistance than previously possible. We've seen it in India, Pakistan, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, Russia, Brazil, etc. Why would this trend not continue in Cuba?
powerapple 5y ago
The alternative is not always better. When judging a country's success, we always assume 'if you change, you become US's standard of living', while in reality, things are always complicated.
rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
so you think people want to become brain surgeon for the money?
lottin 5y ago
> It will allow Cubans to accumulate wealth Accumulating wealth has never been a problem in Cuba or anywhere else. The problem is always creating wealth, which is an economic problem, not a currency problem.

arcticbull 5y ago

> While I like the idea of free health care and education, the idea that a brain surgeon gets paid same as a street cleaner is absurd. I personally support wealth and income inequality when coupled with social mobility (and a high standard of living at the low end). With that in mind, why do you think it's absurd for both a street cleaner and a brain surgeon to enjoy a middle class lifestyle? I think we both agree neither should be dirt poor, but of course, that's not the only option. I cannot, for one, think of a solid justification. Both do something important, necessary even, and both benefit society at large. This comes up frequently here when folks balk at Canadian software engineering wages, which are by Canadian standards solid middle class wages. Compared to America it can be a "pittance" but of course, Canada has much lower wealth and income inequality - and it's because there's a much tighter band of compensation. Fun stuff to think about.

moonchrome 5y ago
> I cannot, for one, think of a solid justification. Really ? Any person without a severe physical disabilities can be a street cleaner - you need very low incentives to generate people capable. Surgeons take like a decade of training and a small % of the population is even capable of becoming one and there's a demand for their skills. Software developers create output that potentially has a very non-linear return. Few 1000 people can create software used by billions daily. A few people can develop software that manages billions of $ of assets.
- pineaux 5y ago
  actually, statistics prove you wrong. Cuba pays surgeons roughly the same as streetcleaners but they have twice the amount of specualists per 100.000, compared to the united states (1). If you look at countries that have (almost) free education (like cuba), you see that these countries have similar numbers of physicians/specialists per 100.000 people. These facts tend to show that the main factor for having "enough" surgeons has nothing or little to do with pay and mostly with opportunity (free) and capability. As an interesting sidenote, I'd like to point out that the high salaries of surgeons in the US help to prevent people from going into surgery. Another point is that if you go into surgery for the money, I think you have the wrong incentives to be the best surgeon. (1) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.SAOP.P5?view=map&year=2014 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.SAOP.P5?view=map...
  - moonchrome 5y ago
    Haha I've lived in a post communist country - if you believe for one second that a surgeon and street cleaner have the same compensation you are extremely naive. The artificial restrictions on direct pay just get transformed into other things. I've listened to Yoel Romero talk about their Olympic program, how the children in the camp would get more food if they performed better in training and they would pit each other aginst one another to promote competition. You think the kids participate because they wanted to compete in the Olympics ? He could have just cleaned the streets and make the same as a surgeon...
tenuousemphasis 5y ago
It's absurd because one profession takes a lot more time, skill, and dedication to become proficient than the other.
kortilla 5y ago
> Canada has much lower wealth and income inequality - and it's because there's a much tighter band of compensation. I can’t fathom pointing to a market that cannot compete globally (Canada’s software engineering job market) and somehow thinking it’s impressive. Knocking everyone down to achieve equality is not desirable. I’m more interested in approaches that provide safety nets and mobility upward. Not ones that eliminate the paths upward.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > I’m more interested in approaches that provide safety nets and mobility upward. Not ones that eliminate the paths upward. To be clear this is my opinion also. I'm not saying Canada's engineering market is impressive, just that this is the context in which this conversation comes up on HN. My question was posed as a platonic thought exercise.
- uniqueid 5y ago
  Knocking everyone down to achieve equality is not desirable. Not desirable in terms of average income, just desirable for the majority of citizens.
  - kortilla 5y ago
    No it’s not. Most of the citizens that desire this think it will achieve them some income or social safety net. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/msnbc-math-mike-bloomberg-one-million-dollars https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/msnbc-ma... The fact that a news anchor didn’t realize that was complete bullshit is an example of how mistaken people are about what “making the rich pay” will accomplish.
    - uniqueid 5y ago
      If I had to choose living with the average income of any nation, obviously I'd consider the US. If I had to swap lives with a random citizen of any nation, it certainly would not be the US. I don't like the odds that I'd find myself incarcerated for shoplifting groceries, or living in a tent city, or crapping in a donut box in the back of an Amazon delivery van, or prostituting my ass to pay for insulin.
riffraff 5y ago
Some common arguments for the wealth inequality: The surgeon will have spent many years studying while the street cleaner can just get started tomorrow. The surgeon has responsibilities the cleaner does not. Finally, given equal pay, people may not want to do unpleasant jobs: I'd rather be a poet than a trash collector. But on the other hand it's somewhat hard to justify someone earning many orders of magnitude more than others.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  > The surgeon will have spent many years studying while the street cleaner can just get started tomorrow. Indeed but if it is paid for by the government then what difference does it make? I would rather work my ass off as a SWE than collect garbage even if I'm getting paid the same amount, however that's just me. I suspect it's you too, if you're honest with yourself. As as for poetry, this is my argument for UBI. Go for it, IMO, poetry has societal value. > The surgeon has responsibilities the cleaner does not. [edit] This is true, and also a surgeon generates value through the people they save. I can get behind that. Thanks for entertaining my thought exercise :)
  - readthenotes1 5y ago
    "As as for poetry, this is my argument for UBI. Go for it, IMO, poetry has societal value." I am a poet on the dole. I tell you, it is good for the soul. I forego prosody for perspicacity, smoke your weed and blow profundity. You could be me if you dared. Give poet your tax money, you declared.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      Based on that poem alone, I consider my tax dollars well spent. Cheers.
renewiltord 5y ago
It is absurd because societies which do not restrict pay like that will outcompete societies that do restrict pay like that. Your brain surgeons will leave and you will be left with the other guy. Which may be fine for you but many Americans do not want that and consequently find things that would bring that about absurd.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Canada has excellent brain surgeons. The reality is immigration isn't as simple as picking up and wandering across a border. There's nativism, protectionism and of course the ties that keep you bound to your local community. Friends, family, shops, restaurants, a house. If I told you that I would pay you 30% more to move to Kansas, would you? Why, and why not? Further, why isn't every brain surgeon in America located in NY, SF and LA? Broadly, America has a pretty bad healthcare system, ranked somewhere in the mid-20s globally. The vast majority of the healthcare systems ranked higher than America are socialized - somewhere between single payer and two tier. With capped pay. Why aren't all those doctors in America? Why isn't every software engineer in the Bay Area currently located in Seattle and Texas? It's really not that simple.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    My family has medical professionals in Canada. I can assure you your surgeons aren’t being paid anywhere near your rubbish disposal people. If they are, then my family is probably all at the 99th percentile of surgeons and at the 99th percentile of family doctors. So naturally I am unsurprised that Canadian neurosurgeons are good. If they’re anything like other surgical specialties they’re probably also making bank. Or maybe they’re not and my extended family is a bunch of superhumans. Berkeley alone has as many Nobel Prize winners as Canada entire. That’s the kind of society we build here. Winners. And sometimes there’s a price we will pay for that (we’ll have some losers). EDIT: Pay your doctors what you pay your street cleaners and you’ll see what they do. They won’t stay in Canada for that. Oh and sorry about the edit style responses. I have hit my comment rate limit. I guess my simple response to the rest is “show me the code”. No one does this thing except authoritarian regimes limiting emigration. If it is so good, show us.
stale2002 5y ago
> why do you think it's absurd for both a street cleaner and a brain surgeon Because a brain surgeon requires a vastly larger amount of money, effort, training, and time to achieve their skill set. Much less people would spend all of these resources, and time, becoming brain surgeons, if it was as lowly paid as much easier jobs. > This comes up frequently here when folks balk at Canadian software engineering wages I mean, ok. But if you don't care about this mismatch, then don't compain when a large amount of engineers in canada flee for better prospects elsewhere. |
- anonymousDan 5y ago
  Then just make the cost of training free only for those that stay in the country.
  - stale2002 5y ago
    What, are countries going to put ankle bracelets on every highly trained individual? Country wide prevention of people fleeing a country for better prospects rarely works. These types of authoritarian lockdowns just don't work in the long term. What, do you ban people from going on vacation in other countries? Do you ban traveling entirely? You can't stop people from leaving, if they can do those things.
    - anonymousDan 5y ago
      That's a bit of a straw man argument. No need for anything so extreme. People are legally required to pay back the funding. If they don't then they will be arrested on return to the country. There are many similar schemes in place to enforce military service for example. As another example the US requires citizens living abroad to pay taxes. Of course some may choose to ignore it but given family ties etc I would wager in many cases the proportion would be small.
      - stale2002 5y ago
        > If they don't then they will be arrested on return to the country. A nationwide scheme to arrest people who leave the country, merely because they have in demand skills is absurd. You are not going to be able to arrest people, who have in demand skills or prevent them from fleeing the country. Like, what does that even mean? For how long do people have to be slaves to the nation? People move countries all the time, and the idea that one is now going to be arrested for something that is perfectly normal and common is absurd. What, is it just now illegal for people in a nation to ever spend time working outside of the country? Do you understand how ridiculous that is, to prevent people from leaving or working outside the country, forever? > As another example the US requires citizens living abroad to pay taxes. The most powerful country in the world can get away with this, yes. But a smaller nation isn't going to be able to have enforced prevention of high skilled labors leaving the country.
dougSF70 5y ago
Yes they do benefit society but in different ways. My own bias is that I approach the subject of compensation from a capitalist economy. If I were the brain surgeon in Cuba (and I have met one when I visited) I would be using my skills and abilities to improve my quality of life since the $30 / month standard wage in Cuba doesn't provide for much. The street cleaner is probably thinking and doing the same thing.

oraphalous 5y ago

If the experiment was to defy U.S. hegemony and see if your outcomes improve - then yeah, it's a failure.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago

I think the 21st century has shown that this "The End of History" thinking where liberal democracies are the ultimate final form of all nations to be false. Brain drain (the noveau riche of Cuba's Bitcoin scene will of course leave to other countries) leads to more security for charismatic leaders who can exercise more authority with less resistance than previously possible. We've seen it in India, Pakistan, Turkey, Hungary, Poland, Russia, Brazil, etc. Why would this trend not continue in Cuba?

powerapple 5y ago

The alternative is not always better. When judging a country's success, we always assume 'if you change, you become US's standard of living', while in reality, things are always complicated.

rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago

so you think people want to become brain surgeon for the money?

lottin 5y ago

> It will allow Cubans to accumulate wealth Accumulating wealth has never been a problem in Cuba or anywhere else. The problem is always creating wealth, which is an economic problem, not a currency problem.