4 ms·

Unvaccinated people have the virus longer and enable it to mutate more. Getting vaccinated will help irregardless if it is a "leaky" vaccine.

eruleman 5y ago
Please keep talking points to a minimum, and stick to the science.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  What? That is the science.
willmadden 5y ago
That's bullshit. It's leaky vaccines that trigger the same narrow immune response that are causing immune escape and hotter variants to emerge. What we're seeing is almost exactly like Marek's disease in chickens: https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathog... We shouldn't be forcing everyone to take a non-sterilizing vaccine. It's incredibly dangerous. Profitable for pharma companies and governments who take away our rights, though.
- zug_zug 5y ago
  Interesting premise. Though according to the article you cited it looks like the 3rd vaccine ultimately worked for the chickens.
- loopz 5y ago
  The virus will mutate freely as soon as it spreads widely. There was never any chance of completely halting that. So vaccines are a response to otherwise unmitigated contagion at some later point in time. Also, the problem of "leaky" vaccines are of course not completely unadressed: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/countering-geert-vanden-bossches-dubious-viral-open-letter-warning-against-mass-covid-19-vaccination/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/countering-geert-vanden-bos... https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vand... https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/covid-19-vaccines-dont-hamper-the-function-of-the-immune-system-and-are-likely-to-limit-the-generation-of-variants-no-evidence-that-they-produce-more-lethal-variants/ https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/covid-19-vaccines-don... Most probably current vaccines will have to be updated, but evidence do not yet point towards this being a bigger problem.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  You either don’t understand the science or you deliberately misrepresent it. Non-sterilizing immunity (aka ‘leaky’ vaccines) has been shown to be effective at reducing virulence in Marek’s disease. This paper was published in 2020, 2 years after the article you cite: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-020-0358-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-020-0358-3
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Your study and the parent's are looking at slightly different things. Essentially, the parent's study is saying that variant virulence has gone up over time, potentially related to leaky vaccine use. Your study is saying that leaky vaccine use can still be useful at reducing viral load and producing better outcomes than not vaccinating. These two different things can be true simultaneously.
    - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
      I encourage you and the parent to read the full text of the Plos paper (if you have not already). It does not show that vaccines selected for more virulent strains as is claimed in the Quanta magazine article and by the parent. It only shows definitively (In a sample size of 100 birds) that birds don’t transmit virus after they die. It also begs the question, what point is the parent trying to make here? That we should just let covid rip so it kills off all the vulnerable?
      - giantg2 5y ago
        "It only shows definitively (In a sample size of 100 birds) that birds don’t transmit virus after they die." They also showed that the cumulative genomes shed where higher for vaccinated birds vs unvaccinated birds when dealing with more virulent strains. And that this did influence the sentinel infections. Yes, that's due to death. It still shows that if mutations become statistically more likely with the cumulative genome shedding, then leaky vaccines do not prevent this and the genomic pool will be skewed more to the virulent side than it would have been otherwise. That's all pretty definitive. Now, does that definitely support that a specific outcome will occur, like vaccines causing more sereve strains- no. Although this is kind of besides my point - that the two studies are not in conflict and perhaps the two parties are arguing two separate topics.
corona-research 5y ago
lol

eruleman 5y ago

Please keep talking points to a minimum, and stick to the science.

renewiltord 5y ago
What? That is the science.

willmadden 5y ago

That's bullshit. It's leaky vaccines that trigger the same narrow immune response that are causing immune escape and hotter variants to emerge. What we're seeing is almost exactly like Marek's disease in chickens: https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathog... We shouldn't be forcing everyone to take a non-sterilizing vaccine. It's incredibly dangerous. Profitable for pharma companies and governments who take away our rights, though.

zug_zug 5y ago
Interesting premise. Though according to the article you cited it looks like the 3rd vaccine ultimately worked for the chickens.
loopz 5y ago
The virus will mutate freely as soon as it spreads widely. There was never any chance of completely halting that. So vaccines are a response to otherwise unmitigated contagion at some later point in time. Also, the problem of "leaky" vaccines are of course not completely unadressed: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/countering-geert-vanden-bossches-dubious-viral-open-letter-warning-against-mass-covid-19-vaccination/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/countering-geert-vanden-bos... https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vanden-bossches-claims https://www.deplatformdisease.com/blog/addressing-geert-vand... https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/covid-19-vaccines-dont-hamper-the-function-of-the-immune-system-and-are-likely-to-limit-the-generation-of-variants-no-evidence-that-they-produce-more-lethal-variants/ https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/covid-19-vaccines-don... Most probably current vaccines will have to be updated, but evidence do not yet point towards this being a bigger problem.
jasonlaramburu 5y ago
You either don’t understand the science or you deliberately misrepresent it. Non-sterilizing immunity (aka ‘leaky’ vaccines) has been shown to be effective at reducing virulence in Marek’s disease. This paper was published in 2020, 2 years after the article you cite: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-020-0358-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-020-0358-3
- giantg2 5y ago
  Your study and the parent's are looking at slightly different things. Essentially, the parent's study is saying that variant virulence has gone up over time, potentially related to leaky vaccine use. Your study is saying that leaky vaccine use can still be useful at reducing viral load and producing better outcomes than not vaccinating. These two different things can be true simultaneously.
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    I encourage you and the parent to read the full text of the Plos paper (if you have not already). It does not show that vaccines selected for more virulent strains as is claimed in the Quanta magazine article and by the parent. It only shows definitively (In a sample size of 100 birds) that birds don’t transmit virus after they die. It also begs the question, what point is the parent trying to make here? That we should just let covid rip so it kills off all the vulnerable?
    - giantg2 5y ago
      "It only shows definitively (In a sample size of 100 birds) that birds don’t transmit virus after they die." They also showed that the cumulative genomes shed where higher for vaccinated birds vs unvaccinated birds when dealing with more virulent strains. And that this did influence the sentinel infections. Yes, that's due to death. It still shows that if mutations become statistically more likely with the cumulative genome shedding, then leaky vaccines do not prevent this and the genomic pool will be skewed more to the virulent side than it would have been otherwise. That's all pretty definitive. Now, does that definitely support that a specific outcome will occur, like vaccines causing more sereve strains- no. Although this is kind of besides my point - that the two studies are not in conflict and perhaps the two parties are arguing two separate topics.

corona-research 5y ago

lol