7 ms·

Scientists urged Wisconsin to limit its wolf kill. It didn’t go well

67 points by lnyan 5y ago

lxe 5y ago
What are the consequences to limiting wolf population in just one state?
- programmarchy 5y ago
  One consequence is more elk and moose.
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  It is stsrting to threaten the wolves survival as a species.
- esarbe 5y ago
  Damage to the eco system. It's been well documented[0] that a lack of predator species can cause lasting damage. [0] https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wildlife/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem/ https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wildlife/wolf-r...
knownjorbist 5y ago
What can we learn from this?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ajmurmann 5y ago
"A 2012 state law requires Wisconsin to hold a wolf hunt whenever gray wolves are not federally protected." Not sure how to ask for an explanation of this without profanity.
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  It’s not clear what this sentence is trying to mean. It may just be saying that wolf culls can only occur during parts of the year when they’re allowed to be culled under federal law, rather then that they have to be culled, although the latter interpretation would be ok too, right? I’m no expert but wouldn’t unchecked wolf numbers rapidly become a significant risk to humans and live stock?
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    If they could grow in a truly unchecked manner, sure, but this generally isn't a concern with apex predators -- their population is kept in check by availability of resources. We see this in action with the wolves in Yellowstone, which remain federally protected -- the wolf population stabilized at around 100 animals. https://nywolf.org/2019/01/wolves-naturally-limit-their-own-numbers/ https://nywolf.org/2019/01/wolves-naturally-limit-their-own-... So it's probably vanishingly rare that wolf packs would need to be culled. Most of the concern over wolves, from what I've seen over the years, has historically come from - game hunters, because when you remove wolves from an ecosystem, game animal population does grow in a relatively unchecked manner; - ranchers who see wolves as an existential threat to their livestock and therefore livelihood. The latter tends to be rather overemphasized by ranchers, from all the evidence I can find; they happen, but statistically, livestock is far more likely to be killed by coyotes. (It's not impossible that if the ranchers let the wolves alone they might suffer less carnivore predation: coyotes and wolves don't like to share territory.)
- rtpg 5y ago
  https://news.wisc.edu/tolerance-of-wolves-in-wisconsin-continues-to-decline/ https://news.wisc.edu/tolerance-of-wolves-in-wisconsin-conti... this article seems to have more. Reading it sideways, what seems to come out is: > “There was a notion held widely in the scientific literature and said at public meetings that a public hunting season would increase acceptance of wolves,” says Adrian Treves, professor in the Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies and co-author of the study. > Treves isn’t certain whether most hunters in Wisconsin will ever embrace wolves because the predators feed on the white-tailed deer that hunters value. > “It’s easier to talk about and tally the costs of dead calves than it is to talk about improved populations of endangered plant species or the other ecosystem benefits that come with wolves.” Sounds like it's basically that hunters dislike wolves (I imagine rural populations aren't fans either...) and that's kind of the default position. And Wisconsin seems to have adopted this hunt as a way to keep the population under control and "release pressure" from, for example, trying to get them completely wiped out. Pretty nasty, though my impression is that wolves are not really accepted much anywhere in the US? I don't know if this is more cruel than other mid-western states or not.
jazzyjackson 5y ago
> The natural resources board, made up of political appointees, ignored those pleas. And it brushed aside a lower quota recommended by a state Wolf Harvest Advisory Committee, made up of biologists, hunters, wolf advocates, and tribal members. Must there be a board AND an advisory committee?
sn41 5y ago
From a lyrical Wisconsin sage of yesteryears: "We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoreau's dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men." - Aldo Leopold, "Thinking like a mountain"
- afc 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing the quote. Funny that this was written by a professor of the University of Wisconsin and dealt pretty directly with the killing of wolves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_like_a_mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_like_a_mountain is an interesting read. "Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain [...]. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the change. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea." This was written in 1949. So many decades have passed and yet here we are, struggling with what should be such a straightforward problem.
decker 5y ago
The deer lobby must be strong in Wisconsin.
- bombcar 5y ago
  85% of voters in Wisconsin are deer. The other 15% are hunters.
  - defterGoose 5y ago
    Wow, and here Fox news had me thinking at least 50% were sheep.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aww_dang 5y ago
Why not reintroduce black bears to Manhattan? Interestingly enough, wild animals are not destroying the property of wildlife activists or lobbyists. This isn't to say that wild animals were never a problem in NYC or NW DC. Those animals were killed a long time ago, thereby allowing the public to conduct business more safely. With their corgis safe within their condos and no real skin in the game, there's something hypocritical about the whole ordeal.
- zuminator 5y ago
  The people recommending the lower quota aren't far off elite lobbyists in NY and DC, but Wisconsin's own Wolf Harvest Advisory Committee, which includes hunters in its cohort.
  - aww_dang 5y ago
    The point stands that wolf reintroduction has been lobbied for by groups like the WWF. 1250 24th St NW, Washington, DC 20037 https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/wwf-s-green-headquarters https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/wwf-s-green-headquarters https://defenders.org/wildlife/gray-wolf https://defenders.org/wildlife/gray-wolf https://defenders.org/newsroom/defenders-of-wildlife-speaks-out-against-wisconsins-proposed-excessive-wolf-quota https://defenders.org/newsroom/defenders-of-wildlife-speaks-... "Defenders of Wildlife Speaks Out Against Wisconsin’s Proposed Excessive Wolf Quota" Defenders of Wildlife, 1130 17th Street NW Washington, DC 20036 How many farmers are included on the committee? How are farmers compensated for wolf predation? How are farmers compensated for reduced grazing productivity? Who pays this compensation, if any?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - quickthrowman 5y ago
      > who pays… The state of Wisconsin, for one: https://p.widencdn.net/7o52me/WolfDamagePayments https://p.widencdn.net/7o52me/WolfDamagePayments From https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolf/maps.html https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolf/maps.ht... I also know the state of MN pays for wolf depredation as well, I’m sure you’re capable of researching this further if you want to know which other states pay out.
calkuta 5y ago
Good ole government, doin a little mass murder today!
trynumber9 5y ago
Crying wolf? They've done this before and the population recovered to even greater heights: https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/images/2020WolfPopRange_0.png https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/images/2... https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/WolfReport.pdf https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/WolfReport.pdf Hence the increased quota.

67 points by lnyan 5y ago

lxe 5y ago

What are the consequences to limiting wolf population in just one state?

programmarchy 5y ago
One consequence is more elk and moose.
Synaesthesia 5y ago
It is stsrting to threaten the wolves survival as a species.
esarbe 5y ago
Damage to the eco system. It's been well documented[0] that a lack of predator species can cause lasting damage. [0] https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wildlife/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem/ https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wildlife/wolf-r...

knownjorbist 5y ago

What can we learn from this?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ajmurmann 5y ago

"A 2012 state law requires Wisconsin to hold a wolf hunt whenever gray wolves are not federally protected." Not sure how to ask for an explanation of this without profanity.

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
It’s not clear what this sentence is trying to mean. It may just be saying that wolf culls can only occur during parts of the year when they’re allowed to be culled under federal law, rather then that they have to be culled, although the latter interpretation would be ok too, right? I’m no expert but wouldn’t unchecked wolf numbers rapidly become a significant risk to humans and live stock?
- chipotle_coyote 5y ago
  If they could grow in a truly unchecked manner, sure, but this generally isn't a concern with apex predators -- their population is kept in check by availability of resources. We see this in action with the wolves in Yellowstone, which remain federally protected -- the wolf population stabilized at around 100 animals. https://nywolf.org/2019/01/wolves-naturally-limit-their-own-numbers/ https://nywolf.org/2019/01/wolves-naturally-limit-their-own-... So it's probably vanishingly rare that wolf packs would need to be culled. Most of the concern over wolves, from what I've seen over the years, has historically come from - game hunters, because when you remove wolves from an ecosystem, game animal population does grow in a relatively unchecked manner; - ranchers who see wolves as an existential threat to their livestock and therefore livelihood. The latter tends to be rather overemphasized by ranchers, from all the evidence I can find; they happen, but statistically, livestock is far more likely to be killed by coyotes. (It's not impossible that if the ranchers let the wolves alone they might suffer less carnivore predation: coyotes and wolves don't like to share territory.)
rtpg 5y ago
https://news.wisc.edu/tolerance-of-wolves-in-wisconsin-continues-to-decline/ https://news.wisc.edu/tolerance-of-wolves-in-wisconsin-conti... this article seems to have more. Reading it sideways, what seems to come out is: > “There was a notion held widely in the scientific literature and said at public meetings that a public hunting season would increase acceptance of wolves,” says Adrian Treves, professor in the Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies and co-author of the study. > Treves isn’t certain whether most hunters in Wisconsin will ever embrace wolves because the predators feed on the white-tailed deer that hunters value. > “It’s easier to talk about and tally the costs of dead calves than it is to talk about improved populations of endangered plant species or the other ecosystem benefits that come with wolves.” Sounds like it's basically that hunters dislike wolves (I imagine rural populations aren't fans either...) and that's kind of the default position. And Wisconsin seems to have adopted this hunt as a way to keep the population under control and "release pressure" from, for example, trying to get them completely wiped out. Pretty nasty, though my impression is that wolves are not really accepted much anywhere in the US? I don't know if this is more cruel than other mid-western states or not.

jazzyjackson 5y ago

> The natural resources board, made up of political appointees, ignored those pleas. And it brushed aside a lower quota recommended by a state Wolf Harvest Advisory Committee, made up of biologists, hunters, wolf advocates, and tribal members. Must there be a board AND an advisory committee?

sn41 5y ago

From a lyrical Wisconsin sage of yesteryears: "We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoreau's dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men." - Aldo Leopold, "Thinking like a mountain"

afc 5y ago
Thanks for sharing the quote. Funny that this was written by a professor of the University of Wisconsin and dealt pretty directly with the killing of wolves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_like_a_mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_like_a_mountain is an interesting read. "Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain [...]. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the change. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea." This was written in 1949. So many decades have passed and yet here we are, struggling with what should be such a straightforward problem.

decker 5y ago

The deer lobby must be strong in Wisconsin.

bombcar 5y ago
85% of voters in Wisconsin are deer. The other 15% are hunters.
- defterGoose 5y ago
  Wow, and here Fox news had me thinking at least 50% were sheep.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aww_dang 5y ago

Why not reintroduce black bears to Manhattan? Interestingly enough, wild animals are not destroying the property of wildlife activists or lobbyists. This isn't to say that wild animals were never a problem in NYC or NW DC. Those animals were killed a long time ago, thereby allowing the public to conduct business more safely. With their corgis safe within their condos and no real skin in the game, there's something hypocritical about the whole ordeal.

zuminator 5y ago
The people recommending the lower quota aren't far off elite lobbyists in NY and DC, but Wisconsin's own Wolf Harvest Advisory Committee, which includes hunters in its cohort.
- aww_dang 5y ago
  The point stands that wolf reintroduction has been lobbied for by groups like the WWF. 1250 24th St NW, Washington, DC 20037 https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/wwf-s-green-headquarters https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/wwf-s-green-headquarters https://defenders.org/wildlife/gray-wolf https://defenders.org/wildlife/gray-wolf https://defenders.org/newsroom/defenders-of-wildlife-speaks-out-against-wisconsins-proposed-excessive-wolf-quota https://defenders.org/newsroom/defenders-of-wildlife-speaks-... "Defenders of Wildlife Speaks Out Against Wisconsin’s Proposed Excessive Wolf Quota" Defenders of Wildlife, 1130 17th Street NW Washington, DC 20036 How many farmers are included on the committee? How are farmers compensated for wolf predation? How are farmers compensated for reduced grazing productivity? Who pays this compensation, if any?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - quickthrowman 5y ago
    > who pays… The state of Wisconsin, for one: https://p.widencdn.net/7o52me/WolfDamagePayments https://p.widencdn.net/7o52me/WolfDamagePayments From https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolf/maps.html https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolf/maps.ht... I also know the state of MN pays for wolf depredation as well, I’m sure you’re capable of researching this further if you want to know which other states pay out.

calkuta 5y ago

Good ole government, doin a little mass murder today!

trynumber9 5y ago

Crying wolf? They've done this before and the population recovered to even greater heights: https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/images/2020WolfPopRange_0.png https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/images/2... https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/WolfReport.pdf https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/WolfReport.pdf Hence the increased quota.