5 ms·

Could they though? An authoritarian government could just as easily say "if you do not implement this feature, we will not allow you to operate in this country"

Could they though? An authoritarian government could just as easily say "if you do not implement this feature, we will not allow you to operate in this country" and refuse to entertain legal challenges.

adrianN 5y ago
Apple is a fairly large company, that gives them some monetary leverage over governments. It's not as simple as you make it seem, I think.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Google is pretty big too but they implemented the filtering in China as requested. Then when they decided they didn't want to do that anymore there went their site.
- pjerem 5y ago
  Should this fact be reassuring or even more frightening ? Because it’s something to push back against governments by saying « I can’t ». But it’s a societal issue if a corporation can say « I don’t want » to a government. It’s really not the same thing and Apple just burned their « I can’t » card and are implying they can just say « no » to governments. Which is quite an even more dystopian thing.
  - spacedcowboy 5y ago
    They can say "no" but they have to cope with the fallout from that. The statement from Apple is that they will say no. Whether that actually ever happens is something we will see, one way or another.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      Apple won't say no to a court order.
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        Of course they won't. The idea of a company refusing to comply with the laws of the countries they operate in purely out of some grand sense of principle just seems naive. Especially if it's the country where HQ is.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  China just hung it's biggest tech companies out to dry. Do you really think they would care in the slightest about banning iPhone? Or that Putin cares more about people not being able to buy what amounts to a luxury item, than being able to hunt down opposition supporters?
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Yeah I'm pretty sure that this wasn't an easy decision for the Chinese government. Even in dictatorships you can't afford to piss off the population too much.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I'm not sure a move to soak rich guys getting a little too big for their britches is that unpopular with the general population.
- laserlight 5y ago
  Is there a guarantee that Apple will retain their monetary status, or even, money will be a leverage over governments in future?
brandon272 5y ago
Who wants to be the government who shuts down Apple? These are politicians we are talking about.
- nl 5y ago
  Who wants to be the government that bans Winnie the Pooh? Ohh... oops.
  - loyukfai 5y ago
    Chinese Apple users already have their data treated differently. Any chance this is already operational there?
- ElFitz 5y ago
  Those already doing far worse than banning a consumer electronics company's products? And, in all honesty, there's a lot of those.
  - brandon272 5y ago
    I meant in the context of U.S. governments. What Democrat administration wants to ban Apple? What Republican administration wants to ban Apple? Sounds like political suicide on either side: government interference with the country's largest company, an iconic brand, for no reason other than to hopefully spy more on your citizens.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      The concern being raised is about some unnamed authoritarian government without US legal norms, though.
    - ctdonath 5y ago
      Analogy: the prospect of “vaccine passports” for jurisdictional movement and access is getting serious consideration at all levels of U.S. governance. Not long ago, anything so resembling “papiere, bitte” commonly inspired a sense of violent resistance against totalitarianism. Just takes one engaging “but this is different” to reframe the worst of humanity to popular compulsion.
zarzavat 5y ago
Authoritarian countries are the least of the worries. There's a large class of illegal imagery that is policed in democratic countries: copyrighted media. We are only two steps away from having your phone rat you to the MPAA because you downloaded a movie and stored it on your phone. I can guarantee that some industry bigwigs are salivating at the prospect of this tech. Imagine youtube copyright strikes but local to your device.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  > Authoritarian countries are the least of the worries. That really depends. And is quite a strange, perhaps worrying, take. Because, for many people, copyright strikes are the least of their problems. Not that I disagree on it being an issue.
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    The only authoritarian country that holds any sway over Apple is China and China can easily just ban iPhones if they feel like it, especially with Xi Jinping in charge. Democratic countries are much more of a danger because Apple has offices in them and cannot easily pull out of the market if they feel the laws are unconscionable.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      I think Apple is pretty tied to China both as a market for their goods and as the place they get manufacturing done.
    - shantara 5y ago
      Russia already forced Apple to allow pre-installing government approved apps on local iPhones: https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/16/22334641/apple-follows-russian-default-apps-law-setup-screen-options-user https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/16/22334641/apple-follows-ru...
- noduerme 5y ago
  One reason I haven't used itunes in years, and don't use iOS, is that I have a huge collection of mp3s. It's almost all of music which I bought and burned off CDs over decades, and it's become just stupidly difficult to organize your own mp3 collection via Apple's players. Even back in the ipod days, you could put your mp3s on an ipod but you needed piracy ware to rip them back off. I can easily see this leading to people like me getting piracy notices and having to explain that no, I bought this music, since we're now in a world where not that many people have their own unlocked music collection anymore.

adrianN 5y ago

Apple is a fairly large company, that gives them some monetary leverage over governments. It's not as simple as you make it seem, I think.

emodendroket 5y ago
Google is pretty big too but they implemented the filtering in China as requested. Then when they decided they didn't want to do that anymore there went their site.
pjerem 5y ago
Should this fact be reassuring or even more frightening ? Because it’s something to push back against governments by saying « I can’t ». But it’s a societal issue if a corporation can say « I don’t want » to a government. It’s really not the same thing and Apple just burned their « I can’t » card and are implying they can just say « no » to governments. Which is quite an even more dystopian thing.
- spacedcowboy 5y ago
  They can say "no" but they have to cope with the fallout from that. The statement from Apple is that they will say no. Whether that actually ever happens is something we will see, one way or another.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    Apple won't say no to a court order.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Of course they won't. The idea of a company refusing to comply with the laws of the countries they operate in purely out of some grand sense of principle just seems naive. Especially if it's the country where HQ is.
ElFitz 5y ago
China just hung it's biggest tech companies out to dry. Do you really think they would care in the slightest about banning iPhone? Or that Putin cares more about people not being able to buy what amounts to a luxury item, than being able to hunt down opposition supporters?
- adrianN 5y ago
  Yeah I'm pretty sure that this wasn't an easy decision for the Chinese government. Even in dictatorships you can't afford to piss off the population too much.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I'm not sure a move to soak rich guys getting a little too big for their britches is that unpopular with the general population.
laserlight 5y ago
Is there a guarantee that Apple will retain their monetary status, or even, money will be a leverage over governments in future?

brandon272 5y ago

Who wants to be the government who shuts down Apple? These are politicians we are talking about.

nl 5y ago
Who wants to be the government that bans Winnie the Pooh? Ohh... oops.
- loyukfai 5y ago
  Chinese Apple users already have their data treated differently. Any chance this is already operational there?
ElFitz 5y ago
Those already doing far worse than banning a consumer electronics company's products? And, in all honesty, there's a lot of those.
- brandon272 5y ago
  I meant in the context of U.S. governments. What Democrat administration wants to ban Apple? What Republican administration wants to ban Apple? Sounds like political suicide on either side: government interference with the country's largest company, an iconic brand, for no reason other than to hopefully spy more on your citizens.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    The concern being raised is about some unnamed authoritarian government without US legal norms, though.
  - ctdonath 5y ago
    Analogy: the prospect of “vaccine passports” for jurisdictional movement and access is getting serious consideration at all levels of U.S. governance. Not long ago, anything so resembling “papiere, bitte” commonly inspired a sense of violent resistance against totalitarianism. Just takes one engaging “but this is different” to reframe the worst of humanity to popular compulsion.

zarzavat 5y ago

Authoritarian countries are the least of the worries. There's a large class of illegal imagery that is policed in democratic countries: copyrighted media. We are only two steps away from having your phone rat you to the MPAA because you downloaded a movie and stored it on your phone. I can guarantee that some industry bigwigs are salivating at the prospect of this tech. Imagine youtube copyright strikes but local to your device.

ElFitz 5y ago
> Authoritarian countries are the least of the worries. That really depends. And is quite a strange, perhaps worrying, take. Because, for many people, copyright strikes are the least of their problems. Not that I disagree on it being an issue.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  The only authoritarian country that holds any sway over Apple is China and China can easily just ban iPhones if they feel like it, especially with Xi Jinping in charge. Democratic countries are much more of a danger because Apple has offices in them and cannot easily pull out of the market if they feel the laws are unconscionable.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    I think Apple is pretty tied to China both as a market for their goods and as the place they get manufacturing done.
  - shantara 5y ago
    Russia already forced Apple to allow pre-installing government approved apps on local iPhones: https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/16/22334641/apple-follows-russian-default-apps-law-setup-screen-options-user https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/16/22334641/apple-follows-ru...
noduerme 5y ago
One reason I haven't used itunes in years, and don't use iOS, is that I have a huge collection of mp3s. It's almost all of music which I bought and burned off CDs over decades, and it's become just stupidly difficult to organize your own mp3 collection via Apple's players. Even back in the ipod days, you could put your mp3s on an ipod but you needed piracy ware to rip them back off. I can easily see this leading to people like me getting piracy notices and having to explain that no, I bought this music, since we're now in a world where not that many people have their own unlocked music collection anymore.