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Wait, I thought the general consensus is that the current vaccines reduce the severity of the infection but provide little defense against contacting and spread

Wait, I thought the general consensus is that the current vaccines reduce the severity of the infection but provide little defense against contacting and spreading it? At least, this has been used to explain why infection rates are still increasing even among vaccinated populations.

mattkrause 5y ago
They're certainly less effective vs variants, but I haven't seen any convincing data suggesting that vaccines are totally ineffective against them. In fact, the article also quotes one of the authors as saying: "The bottom line is, this can happen — it can be true that vaccinated people can spread the virus. But we do not yet know what their relative role in overall community spread is."
- kaczordon 5y ago
  Looks like against delta the vaccines could have as low as 39% efficacy against preventing symptomatic COVID. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v...
  - otherme123 5y ago
    We keep using percentages as if they had a true meaning. All the values that keep flying around cannot be compared, as they all measure slightly different things. That 39% number (protection against symptoms) wasn't checked at the trials, or at least wasn't reported. In that same article, they state that protection against being hospitalized/ICUed is still around 90%, which are the same values we heard before. Guess that doesn't sell clicks.
    - kaczordon 5y ago
      It absolutely was reported and tested for, please don’t spread misinformation.
      - otherme123 5y ago
        If that is the case, it has absolutely nothing to do with the reported "around 90% effectivity" that was in the headlines for the four main vaccines. Saying that delta diminishes the effectivity from over 90% to 39% is spreading misinformation. Implying it, as the above linked article does, is spreading misinformation, knowing that lots of people doesn't read beyond the headline. Vaccines are still more than 90% effective against delta variant, or any other variant so far. The 39% above only means that vaccinated people has "only" that protection against being infected (that is, being positive on a PCR test). Even if you are asymtomatic you are counted as infected, thus the vaccine alegedly didn't protect you. But vaccinated people still has around 90% protection against being hospitalized, even in delta variant environments. The only conclusion we can get is: herd immunity is still far. Get vaxxed ASAP, because this thing will keep spreading.
        kaczordon 5y ago
        Even if you are asymtomatic you are counted as infected Incorrect the vaccine trials only tested for symptomatic COVID not asymptomatic, so your assertion here is wrong. The 39% number is for symptomatic COVID only. Also if you read my original comment you’ll see I only refer to symptomatic COVID and not to death or hospitalizations, perhaps you should read more closely before blindly accusing me of being misleading.
vsef 5y ago
No, the consensus is that they reduce severity but also protect against contracting, just at lower efficacy rate than against earlier variants. They still reduce cases versus not having them.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  You can see this happening here in Iceland where we’re going through a surge in cases thanks to Delta but almost the entire adult population is vaccinated: https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/janssen-group-most-at-risk-of-infection https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/janssen-group-most-at-ri... https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/people-told-vaccinate-to-avoid-harder-restrictions https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/people-told-vaccinate-to... > “Diagnosis of infection is three-times more likely in the non-vaccinated than the vaccinated, the likelihood of hospital admission is some four-times higher, and the frequency of intensive care is five times more common in the non-vaccinated than the vaccinated. So, we are seeing that vaccination is protecting against infection and especially against serious illness, which should be a spur to everyone to get vaccinated who has not been vaccinated so far,” Þórólfur said. Anecdotally having had COVID before isn’t necessarily protection either. I’ve a relative who has now had both one of the original strains and the Delta variant.
  - sterlind 5y ago
    Maybe having gotten vaccinated, if I got Delta the serum antibodies would protect me from serious illness, and I'd gain mucosal immunity from the upper respiratory tract infection to complete the set? Not that I'm planning to get infected; I'm just looking for silver linings to soothe myself about the possibility.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    It seems to me that the key phrase there is "diagnosis of infection". That's likely to be reduced by protecting against symptoms, because asymptomatic people are unlikely to be tested. Is anyone doing regular tests on large groups of people to measure the rate of asymptomatic infections?
didibus 5y ago
I haven't checked in a while, but does the data show that the efficacy against delta is less than the 90% we thought the vaccines were going to be? I mean, we all knew some vaccinated people would still get Covid, about 10% of them, so do we know that there is a higher number of breakthrough cases than even that?
- dabfiend19 5y ago
  sure we did. that ~90% number came before the south African variant, and many others. that's arguably why the j&j had a much lower rate than Pfizer, as it was tested amongst test pools with different variants circulating.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    > that's arguably why the j&j had a much lower rate than Pfizer, as it was tested amongst test pools with different variants circulating. J&J was tested in populations that didn't have the SA variant, and Pfizer was tested in populations that did (in addition to the other combinations you mentioned). Tests were done worldwide and we had natural experiments due to different tests in different time in different (relatively) isolated populations. That effect exists, but only covers a small percentage of the difference in efficacy.
anonymouse008 5y ago
My telephone told me I get Covid immediately upon vaccination /s * this is a joke reflecting how’s the childhood game of telephone can be easily translated to “consensus says”
antman 5y ago
The consensus is that vaccination also reduces spreading significantly. If I recall correctly it goes down to 25% Also vaccinated people social distance less and social distance measures are being removed so infection rates should go up.

mattkrause 5y ago

They're certainly less effective vs variants, but I haven't seen any convincing data suggesting that vaccines are totally ineffective against them. In fact, the article also quotes one of the authors as saying: "The bottom line is, this can happen — it can be true that vaccinated people can spread the virus. But we do not yet know what their relative role in overall community spread is."

kaczordon 5y ago
Looks like against delta the vaccines could have as low as 39% efficacy against preventing symptomatic COVID. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v...
- otherme123 5y ago
  We keep using percentages as if they had a true meaning. All the values that keep flying around cannot be compared, as they all measure slightly different things. That 39% number (protection against symptoms) wasn't checked at the trials, or at least wasn't reported. In that same article, they state that protection against being hospitalized/ICUed is still around 90%, which are the same values we heard before. Guess that doesn't sell clicks.
  - kaczordon 5y ago
    It absolutely was reported and tested for, please don’t spread misinformation.
    - otherme123 5y ago
      If that is the case, it has absolutely nothing to do with the reported "around 90% effectivity" that was in the headlines for the four main vaccines. Saying that delta diminishes the effectivity from over 90% to 39% is spreading misinformation. Implying it, as the above linked article does, is spreading misinformation, knowing that lots of people doesn't read beyond the headline. Vaccines are still more than 90% effective against delta variant, or any other variant so far. The 39% above only means that vaccinated people has "only" that protection against being infected (that is, being positive on a PCR test). Even if you are asymtomatic you are counted as infected, thus the vaccine alegedly didn't protect you. But vaccinated people still has around 90% protection against being hospitalized, even in delta variant environments. The only conclusion we can get is: herd immunity is still far. Get vaxxed ASAP, because this thing will keep spreading.
      - kaczordon 5y ago
        Even if you are asymtomatic you are counted as infected Incorrect the vaccine trials only tested for symptomatic COVID not asymptomatic, so your assertion here is wrong. The 39% number is for symptomatic COVID only. Also if you read my original comment you’ll see I only refer to symptomatic COVID and not to death or hospitalizations, perhaps you should read more closely before blindly accusing me of being misleading.

vsef 5y ago

No, the consensus is that they reduce severity but also protect against contracting, just at lower efficacy rate than against earlier variants. They still reduce cases versus not having them.

meheleventyone 5y ago
You can see this happening here in Iceland where we’re going through a surge in cases thanks to Delta but almost the entire adult population is vaccinated: https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/janssen-group-most-at-risk-of-infection https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/janssen-group-most-at-ri... https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/people-told-vaccinate-to-avoid-harder-restrictions https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/people-told-vaccinate-to... > “Diagnosis of infection is three-times more likely in the non-vaccinated than the vaccinated, the likelihood of hospital admission is some four-times higher, and the frequency of intensive care is five times more common in the non-vaccinated than the vaccinated. So, we are seeing that vaccination is protecting against infection and especially against serious illness, which should be a spur to everyone to get vaccinated who has not been vaccinated so far,” Þórólfur said. Anecdotally having had COVID before isn’t necessarily protection either. I’ve a relative who has now had both one of the original strains and the Delta variant.
- sterlind 5y ago
  Maybe having gotten vaccinated, if I got Delta the serum antibodies would protect me from serious illness, and I'd gain mucosal immunity from the upper respiratory tract infection to complete the set? Not that I'm planning to get infected; I'm just looking for silver linings to soothe myself about the possibility.
- leereeves 5y ago
  It seems to me that the key phrase there is "diagnosis of infection". That's likely to be reduced by protecting against symptoms, because asymptomatic people are unlikely to be tested. Is anyone doing regular tests on large groups of people to measure the rate of asymptomatic infections?

didibus 5y ago

I haven't checked in a while, but does the data show that the efficacy against delta is less than the 90% we thought the vaccines were going to be? I mean, we all knew some vaccinated people would still get Covid, about 10% of them, so do we know that there is a higher number of breakthrough cases than even that?

dabfiend19 5y ago
sure we did. that ~90% number came before the south African variant, and many others. that's arguably why the j&j had a much lower rate than Pfizer, as it was tested amongst test pools with different variants circulating.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > that's arguably why the j&j had a much lower rate than Pfizer, as it was tested amongst test pools with different variants circulating. J&J was tested in populations that didn't have the SA variant, and Pfizer was tested in populations that did (in addition to the other combinations you mentioned). Tests were done worldwide and we had natural experiments due to different tests in different time in different (relatively) isolated populations. That effect exists, but only covers a small percentage of the difference in efficacy.

anonymouse008 5y ago

My telephone told me I get Covid immediately upon vaccination /s * this is a joke reflecting how’s the childhood game of telephone can be easily translated to “consensus says”

antman 5y ago

The consensus is that vaccination also reduces spreading significantly. If I recall correctly it goes down to 25% Also vaccinated people social distance less and social distance measures are being removed so infection rates should go up.