4 ms·

Good old fashioned police-work is needed instead of back-doors into our favorite apps. The Internet and app ecosystems can't work properly if they're weakened

Good old fashioned police-work is needed instead of back-doors into our favorite apps. The Internet and app ecosystems can't work properly if they're weakened by LEAs. People would just not use them if they know they're being watched. I'm not saying the majority would switch to Linux phones either (like Librem 5 & Pinephone), simply that the two dominating app-stores (Play & Apple Store) would be phased out and people would probably fund independent FLOSS app stores to replace them. In the end, the people will speak out and respond to back-doors. In-fact we need FLOSS app stores right now (Similar to F-Droid[0], but baked in as the default store), and they need to be funded properly & they need sound economic incentives to continue. No more 'free' apps where you pay for them with your data. It's possible to have FLOSS apps that are not gratis where people pay for them with money, not their data. (The reason I suggest we switch to FLOSS app stores is that the apps can easily be checked for back-doors or malicious code since the code is open source. It makes the apps readily available for audits too) [0] https://f-droid.org/ https://f-droid.org/

sschueller 5y ago
CSAM also doesn't prevent children from being exploited. It's an archive of past abuse. The police should focus and finding creators of such abhorrent material and put them in prison.
- md_ 5y ago
  I think there are a few theories here: 1. CSAM production may be incentivized by consumers (either because they pay for it or because they serve to encourage the producers). 2. CSAM may (as, famously, with Backpage) be an advertisement for real-world meet ups and further abuse. 3. Having pictures of one’s own abuse further disseminated is itself abusive and morally wrong. Obviously producers should also be prosecuted, but while I do think the American approach is in many ways informed by puritanical beliefs, there are perfectly rational reasons to pursue the spread of such material.
  - c7DJTLrn 5y ago
    I don't think the theory that consumption drives production holds true when talking about child pornography because the material can be copied infinitely, it's not a finite resource.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Exposure to more people might lure more people into becoming buyers; what's what CSAM distribution laws are trying to prevent: showing them to more people.
      - makeitdouble 5y ago
        The link between exposure to visual material and illegal buying is IMO extremely sketchy. I mean, we can’t even get enough people to pay for legal, mainstream, consensual and officially produced porn. Getting random people to pay for content is a pretty hard thing to do, and I’d assume illegal content wouldn’t just be taking credit cards either, so the barrier is way higher. The conversion rate looks to me to be abysmally low, and we’re trying to police the whole internet for that.
        md_ 5y ago
        Surely (some) people do pay for legally porn. Otherwise whose paying the costs of production?
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      > I don't think the theory that consumption drives production holds true when talking about child pornography because the material can be copied infinitely, it's not a finite resource. Legal porn seems like a strong counterexample.
  - syshum 5y ago
    >here are perfectly rational reasons to pursue the spread of such material. sure but people should also keep in mind that pursuit could massively backfire, like in the case of backpage, where the shutdown of the site actually made is HARDER to find and recuse children being abused because now the traffickers are using more secure, more underground platforms...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lancesells 5y ago
  This would seemingly help police catch more of these abhorrent people in less time. I think the question is does that outweigh the eventual abuse of the much larger population of non-abusers. Personally, I've been heading toward a life more free of the internet and technology. This move by Apple is speeding that up.
- anthk 5y ago
  >. The police should focus and finding creators of such abhorrent material and put them in prison. Good luck with that. They are in Russia/Eastern Europe, behind mafias.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    Nope, for western "consumers" of CSAM it's not uncommon to find CSAM produced by themselves or evidence of non-CSAM abuse (e.g. grooming). While organized crime does play a role in the "market", the majority of CSAM is produced within families. Also, some of the CSAM sharing rings that have been busted had a joining requirement of original/self-produced CSAM, so in those scenarios the participants who joined just to get access to CSAM were not just "in possession" of it but actively involved in abuse.
wrycoder 5y ago
As far as I know, a FLOSS store for Apple devices is very close to impossible.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  There's proposed legislation that would enforce user freedom when it comes to FLOSS and mobile app distribution.
totetsu 5y ago
> People would just not use them if they know they're being watched. Are you so sure of this? Maybe some people.. like the same kind of people who visit this web page, they might get a sick feeling in their stomach thinking that their basic human interactions like talking to their mother, are swallowed up and surveilled... but MOST PEOPLE will just accept it and it will become the new normal.

sschueller 5y ago

CSAM also doesn't prevent children from being exploited. It's an archive of past abuse. The police should focus and finding creators of such abhorrent material and put them in prison.

md_ 5y ago
I think there are a few theories here: 1. CSAM production may be incentivized by consumers (either because they pay for it or because they serve to encourage the producers). 2. CSAM may (as, famously, with Backpage) be an advertisement for real-world meet ups and further abuse. 3. Having pictures of one’s own abuse further disseminated is itself abusive and morally wrong. Obviously producers should also be prosecuted, but while I do think the American approach is in many ways informed by puritanical beliefs, there are perfectly rational reasons to pursue the spread of such material.
- c7DJTLrn 5y ago
  I don't think the theory that consumption drives production holds true when talking about child pornography because the material can be copied infinitely, it's not a finite resource.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Exposure to more people might lure more people into becoming buyers; what's what CSAM distribution laws are trying to prevent: showing them to more people.
    - makeitdouble 5y ago
      The link between exposure to visual material and illegal buying is IMO extremely sketchy. I mean, we can’t even get enough people to pay for legal, mainstream, consensual and officially produced porn. Getting random people to pay for content is a pretty hard thing to do, and I’d assume illegal content wouldn’t just be taking credit cards either, so the barrier is way higher. The conversion rate looks to me to be abysmally low, and we’re trying to police the whole internet for that.
      - md_ 5y ago
        Surely (some) people do pay for legally porn. Otherwise whose paying the costs of production?
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > I don't think the theory that consumption drives production holds true when talking about child pornography because the material can be copied infinitely, it's not a finite resource. Legal porn seems like a strong counterexample.
- syshum 5y ago
  >here are perfectly rational reasons to pursue the spread of such material. sure but people should also keep in mind that pursuit could massively backfire, like in the case of backpage, where the shutdown of the site actually made is HARDER to find and recuse children being abused because now the traffickers are using more secure, more underground platforms...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lancesells 5y ago
This would seemingly help police catch more of these abhorrent people in less time. I think the question is does that outweigh the eventual abuse of the much larger population of non-abusers. Personally, I've been heading toward a life more free of the internet and technology. This move by Apple is speeding that up.
anthk 5y ago
>. The police should focus and finding creators of such abhorrent material and put them in prison. Good luck with that. They are in Russia/Eastern Europe, behind mafias.
- PeterisP 5y ago
  Nope, for western "consumers" of CSAM it's not uncommon to find CSAM produced by themselves or evidence of non-CSAM abuse (e.g. grooming). While organized crime does play a role in the "market", the majority of CSAM is produced within families. Also, some of the CSAM sharing rings that have been busted had a joining requirement of original/self-produced CSAM, so in those scenarios the participants who joined just to get access to CSAM were not just "in possession" of it but actively involved in abuse.

wrycoder 5y ago

As far as I know, a FLOSS store for Apple devices is very close to impossible.

heavyset_go 5y ago
There's proposed legislation that would enforce user freedom when it comes to FLOSS and mobile app distribution.

totetsu 5y ago

> People would just not use them if they know they're being watched. Are you so sure of this? Maybe some people.. like the same kind of people who visit this web page, they might get a sick feeling in their stomach thinking that their basic human interactions like talking to their mother, are swallowed up and surveilled... but MOST PEOPLE will just accept it and it will become the new normal.