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Arguments about CSAM aside, I think this is the final nail in the coffin of walled gardens and closed devices. If a company can unilaterally swoop in and throw
by edrxty 5y ago
Arguments about CSAM aside, I think this is the final nail in the coffin of walled gardens and closed devices. If a company can unilaterally swoop in and throw the EULA out the window on a device you bought years with absolutely no recourse then what are we supposed to do?
- gameswithgo 5y agoDon't buy it
- edrxty 5y agoThat's becoming less of an option by the day and will only accelerate if Apple gets their way.
- alttab 5y agoLiterally just get an Android phone.
- fredsir 5y agoIf you think it's not spreading to Android phones, you are naive. Apple set the precedent, now it's gonna come to every mainstream device. The only option is to abandon ship.
- cmurf 5y agoFor a split second I lamented the demise of Windows Phone. But they too would just follow. But I do lament the end of Firefox OS.
- edrxty 5y agoSure, now find me a new car that doesn't have the ability to do OTA updates
- alttab 5y agoAssuming the marketplace is functioning, the demand for these sort of "features" (aka: non-features) would assume there would be a rational supplier to give it. The next step in that debate is "yeah but the big monopolies are making it impossible for a little guy to get in." Which is true. We can agree the regulatory capture is bad. In the meanwhile, Google is not openly saying they will run ML on your images on your phone. With Android, you don't have to sync to the cloud, and you could even replace or add your own camera option. You can side-load without jailbreaking, etc. Now, not that most consumer friendly option, but the advice for this crowd is still good - if you still have an iPhone and this is the last straw for you, there are plenty of good options that still exist, today. And then - let's fight regulatory capture and big government so a more dynamic marketplace can take root.
- edrxty 5y agoSure, but I already have an android. The concern I have is that the regulatory landscape will change if Apple opens Pandora's box. Google could just as easily do the same thing, hampered only by their complete inability to keep androids updated. I have a pine phone but what happens if the Congress critters decide everyone should have this feature and networks should ban devices that don't. The point is that we're REALLY playing with fire here.
- notriddle 5y ago> Assuming the marketplace is functioning It's not. That's the problem.
- handrous 5y ago> Assuming the marketplace is functioning, the demand for these sort of "features" (aka: non-features) would assume there would be a rational supplier to give it. The assumption that a "functioning" market will do a good job of catering to even fairly popular wishes does not seem to hold true in the real world, including for cases in which I'm pretty damn sure it's not some kind of government interference causing it not to. It's utterly common for plain ol' commodities subject to no special government scrutiny or control and with many suppliers to provide no option for features or product-types that would surely have many buyers, simply because no-one expects the returns to be as high as doing something else with the same capacity. AFAIK this happens for a bunch of reasons, including that information is very, very far from being perfectly shared in all parts of the market, that there are significant costs associated with quality information-gathering, and efficient use of capital tending to cause production to cluster around tiny little bits of the possible product space (similar to how pharmacies like to build right next to each other, rather than spreading out to reduce travel-time-to-a-pharmacy in an area)
- zepto 5y agoGoogle’s photo library already scans for CSAM.
- nsizx 5y agoBut not in your device.
- zepto 5y agoNo - it’s worse than that. They can scan for anything they like. They have made no promises about limiting what they do.
- nsizx 5y agoSource?
- zepto 5y agohttps://support.google.com/transparencyreport/answer/10330933?hl=en#zippy=%2Cwhat-is-googles-approach-to-combating-csam%2Chow-does-google-identify-csam-on-its-platform%2Cwhat-is-csam https://support.google.com/transparencyreport/answer/1033093... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/04/google-child-abuse-ncmec-internet-watch-gmail https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/04/google-ch...
- nsizx 5y agoNothing in those links says that Google can scan the pictures you store in your device using your own device to do the scanning.
- zepto 5y agoYou seem to be confused about what Apple is doing. Nothing anywhere says that Apple scans the pictures you store on your own device. They only scan the pictures you upload to their cloud service. The scanning is done on device before upload in Apple’s case, and in the cloud after upload in Google’s case, but either way it is only done to photos that are uploaded to their cloud services. If you are really claiming Apple scans the photos you don’t upload to iCloud Photo Library, then you are lying or dissembling. I assume that is not what actually what you mean.
- echelon 5y agoRegulate it. The FBI/CIA/CCP are not the people we elect. My representative is behind the charge to undo the app store monopoly. We can also push for less surveillance, less centralization of power, etc. It seems if the OS vendor doesn't get to have a default browser, default app store, and default cloud store, that they don't get access to scan your files without asking either. Legislate.
- csw-001 5y agoAgreed. Democratically decide where the lines are, or ought to be, then move those lines with amendments and revisions as needed. Judge those lines in the broader context of our legal system. We balance these issues in the physical world with warrants and judicial oversight - that's what we need here - sensible middle ground the democracy can live with.
- nzeribe 5y ago"Consumer choice" is not how you stop hostile all-pervasive monopoly machine learning algorithms. The number of times I've heard from smart people: "Don't use Google"; "Don't use Amazon"; "Microsoft are evil" (true) - now "Don't buy it". Running into the hedgerows and away from the mainstream of digital life is not an option for all but a tiny fraction of people. "Just get an Android phone!" is an even worse idea.
- arsome 5y agoI have to disagree - privacy requires openness. Indeed, "just get an Android phone" from Google, OnePlus and several other major manufacturers is a viable solution - they allow you full control over the device without their permission. You don't want Google? No problem, blow the ROM away and install Lineage without GApps, you can even mess with MicroG if you're reliant on some app that needs Play Services.
- zepto 5y agoIn terms of avoiding CSAM detection they give you no more control than Apple. If you use Google’s Photo Library, your photos have already been scanned.
- causi 5y agoWell, almost. Both of them have their "fuck the user" quirks. Oneplus spent a goodly amount of time exfiltrating private data to their own servers until they got caught and Google has a bad habit of disabling features like HDMI-out to force you to buy their other products like Chromecast.
- dghlsakjg 5y agoThat's an option for the tech literate. I want an option that is "grandma" compatible. In other words, it isn't really viable if you can't just buy it off the shelf, or have to dig into settings to opt out. Right now if I go to Best Buy (or insert your favorite retailer here), I can't buy hardware off the shelf that won't send my data to a remote server by default.
- NexRebular 5y ago
- lamontcg 5y agoYou dropped your "/s"
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoYou agreed to let them alter the terms of the deal. It's in the EULA.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y agoApple is altering the deal. Pray they don't alter it any further.
- GekkePrutser 5y agoI really wish this would be the end of it. But 99% of consumers will keep buying into these walled gardens and will forget about all this within a week if they even heard of this in the news. Because the next iPhone will come in pretty purple that they absolutely must have.
- bengale 5y agoI think when most people understand what the thing is doing they either don’t care or actually agree with it. There’s a large overlap with tech people and people that have strong privacy feelings. If you chat with normal people they are generally completely onboard with scanning for this type of material. I had quite a hard time explaining to some people why the anger towards this wasn’t pro-pedo essentially because they couldn’t understand why anyone would be against these people being found.
- zepto 5y agoWhich part of the EULA is being thrown out?
- RC_ITR 5y ago>In short, Apple has built a CSAM detector that sits at the doorway between your device and iCloud. If you don’t sync photos with iCloud, the detector never runs. If you don't want your photos scanned, turn off iCloud. You can disagree about whether or not that's anti-consumer, but you cannot argue they are changing anything about your device or it's EULA (they are changing the EULA of a service).
- busymom0 5y agoI am curious how that works for iMessage. In the example screenshots they shared, they show their scan runs on iMessage too. Is there a way to disable that? Also disabling iCloud would be an option if they allowed for third party backup/sync apps to run background tasks.
- websites2023 5y ago>Is there a way to disable that? It's a feature of Communication safety in Messages. This is opt-in. https://www.apple.com/child-safety/ https://www.apple.com/child-safety/
- busymom0 5y agoYou are right. Though that’s opt in “for now”.
- bengale 5y agoYou may be confusing CSAM detection for iCloud Photo Library with a new parental control feature for under 13s in the messaging app.
- busymom0 5y agoAh so the csam detection doesn’t apply to incoming iMessages? (For now at least I guess- who knows about what Apple decides to do once this gets adopted).
- sschueller 5y agoFinal nail is when Apple starts preventing you from installing non approved apps on your PC. It's coming and the excuse will be security. Sorry, you can't install this bit torrent client or this crypto wallet...
- q-rews 5y agoYou know it can’t happen. If developers jump ship who’ll fill their app stores?
- kyriakos 5y agoIt's a catch 22 cause developers want to sell their apps so they will still comply
- sschueller 5y agoThey don't care about developers. Touch bar ESC key, thinnes instead of performance etc.
- jclardy 5y agoApple is already doing that with iOS and iPadOS. Apps are already taken down from the App Store in China at the request of the government.
- Kenji 5y agoYou're a dumbass for buying Apple, the writing was on the wall for ages. Don't buy Apple, buy and use devices that are under your control. How the fuck is that so hard to understand, we've been telling you people for literal decades.
- demosito666 5y agoThe final nail as in nobody will give a shit about it and Apple's revenue will continue to rise? Because this what will happen and was happening for the last decades.