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Then don't use that software if prod if that’s how you feel. The project is literally telling you “this will change and isn't _api_ stable yet. I don’t see how

by dcow 5y ago

Then don't use that software if prod if that’s how you feel. The project is literally telling you “this will change and isn't _api_ stable yet. I don’t see how that’s the project’s fault. Maybe if they’re advertising themselves as production quality but won’t commit to a 1, fine.

hashkb 5y ago
Do you think that's appropriate for React Native? Many of the others on their list of notable projects would probably be considered "production" quality if you asked the average dev and didn't mention the version number.
- williamdclt 5y ago
  I would think that's appropriate for React Native. It depends where you draw the line of "production-ready", but React Native falls short on a number of criteria (stability or bug-freeness for example). It's just a damn useful tool, despite its many shortcomings.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    to me production-ready means ready to be used in production; If you and many people consider it useful enough to be used in production despite shortcomings, and are doing so, if the developers are aware of that and don't discourage it (does any react native documentaiton anywhere say not to use it in production?), and perhaps encourage it... it sounds production-ready to me.
    - dcow 5y ago
      So other people are the only ones who know when my project is done? And if people start using my project in production I have to immediately bump the version from 0.4 to 1? This doesn't make any sense…
      - hashkb 5y ago
        Right, I'm with you. I think maybe the whole "we should all version the same way" thing probably isn't the right answer to "how do we know when it's safe to upgrade" question.
jgilias 5y ago
What is there to commit to though? There are enough integers to keep bumping the major version every day indefinitely if that's how often your api changes. Also, no one forces you to support 'deprecated' versions, and the rate of deprecation is completely in the hands of maintainers. It's just nice to have some indication of what's going on between versions. If something is 'production ready', it's definitely past the '0.y' stage by definition. At least if you actually stick to semver, as '0.y' is explicitly defined as reserved for initial development.
- nickelpro 5y ago
  Because a major version of 1.0+ carries the social implication of updates and stability, even if that's not written in the SemVer spec. Many projects want to avoid even the impression of stability
  - jgilias 5y ago
    This is fine, as long as those projects don't also encourage people to use them in docs and fancy marketing websites. That's just double faced.
    - dcow 5y ago
      So let’s say you start a project, get 70% there, it’s version roughly 0.7. The project blows up, people get interested, lots of attention is paid to the periphery. Everyone is now using your project but it’s still missing 30% of what you’d consider necessary to be feature complete. What do you do?
      - jgilias 5y ago
        That's the big misunderstanding here, isn't it? That software must be 'done', 'finished', 'feature complete', etc, in order to have major version number greater than 0. I would (I hope), release version 1.0 soon after I notice people actually using the software, document the existing API, keep releasing new features as minor version updates (1.x), and occasionaly do a major version bump if I see that I must break the existing APIs. As semver prescribes.
moss2 5y ago
OP: I have issues with the phrase "open-source devs don't owe you anything" Reply: OPEN-SOURCE DEVS DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING!!! Come on, at least try to engage with what's being said.
- dcow 5y ago
  That’s not what I said, maybe ready my comment again. OP: I have a problem with open source projects where the marketing and version number don’t match. If it looks like a prod, and smells like a prod, it’s a freaking prod. You owe us a 1.0. Reply: Okay, but maybe don’t go gobble up any project out there that has a nice landing page and docs and get fooled into thinking it’s a prod. The devs are probably using semver to try and communicate with you. If the project smells like a prod to you but is only version 0.8 and that makes you antsy, then don’t be part of your own problem. Don’t use it in prod. Simple. Also plenty of software is stable enough to be used as 0.8 even in prod even if it’s not feature complete and the maintainers don’t consider it 1.0. If you want your 0.8 to magically become a 1.0, have you considered sponsoring the project so that some devs can work full time on it? Hmm.

by dcow 5y ago

hashkb 5y ago

Do you think that's appropriate for React Native? Many of the others on their list of notable projects would probably be considered "production" quality if you asked the average dev and didn't mention the version number.

williamdclt 5y ago
I would think that's appropriate for React Native. It depends where you draw the line of "production-ready", but React Native falls short on a number of criteria (stability or bug-freeness for example). It's just a damn useful tool, despite its many shortcomings.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  to me production-ready means ready to be used in production; If you and many people consider it useful enough to be used in production despite shortcomings, and are doing so, if the developers are aware of that and don't discourage it (does any react native documentaiton anywhere say not to use it in production?), and perhaps encourage it... it sounds production-ready to me.
  - dcow 5y ago
    So other people are the only ones who know when my project is done? And if people start using my project in production I have to immediately bump the version from 0.4 to 1? This doesn't make any sense…
    - hashkb 5y ago
      Right, I'm with you. I think maybe the whole "we should all version the same way" thing probably isn't the right answer to "how do we know when it's safe to upgrade" question.

jgilias 5y ago

What is there to commit to though? There are enough integers to keep bumping the major version every day indefinitely if that's how often your api changes. Also, no one forces you to support 'deprecated' versions, and the rate of deprecation is completely in the hands of maintainers. It's just nice to have some indication of what's going on between versions. If something is 'production ready', it's definitely past the '0.y' stage by definition. At least if you actually stick to semver, as '0.y' is explicitly defined as reserved for initial development.

nickelpro 5y ago
Because a major version of 1.0+ carries the social implication of updates and stability, even if that's not written in the SemVer spec. Many projects want to avoid even the impression of stability
- jgilias 5y ago
  This is fine, as long as those projects don't also encourage people to use them in docs and fancy marketing websites. That's just double faced.
  - dcow 5y ago
    So let’s say you start a project, get 70% there, it’s version roughly 0.7. The project blows up, people get interested, lots of attention is paid to the periphery. Everyone is now using your project but it’s still missing 30% of what you’d consider necessary to be feature complete. What do you do?
    - jgilias 5y ago
      That's the big misunderstanding here, isn't it? That software must be 'done', 'finished', 'feature complete', etc, in order to have major version number greater than 0. I would (I hope), release version 1.0 soon after I notice people actually using the software, document the existing API, keep releasing new features as minor version updates (1.x), and occasionaly do a major version bump if I see that I must break the existing APIs. As semver prescribes.

moss2 5y ago

OP: I have issues with the phrase "open-source devs don't owe you anything" Reply: OPEN-SOURCE DEVS DON'T OWE YOU ANYTHING!!! Come on, at least try to engage with what's being said.

dcow 5y ago
That’s not what I said, maybe ready my comment again. OP: I have a problem with open source projects where the marketing and version number don’t match. If it looks like a prod, and smells like a prod, it’s a freaking prod. You owe us a 1.0. Reply: Okay, but maybe don’t go gobble up any project out there that has a nice landing page and docs and get fooled into thinking it’s a prod. The devs are probably using semver to try and communicate with you. If the project smells like a prod to you but is only version 0.8 and that makes you antsy, then don’t be part of your own problem. Don’t use it in prod. Simple. Also plenty of software is stable enough to be used as 0.8 even in prod even if it’s not feature complete and the maintainers don’t consider it 1.0. If you want your 0.8 to magically become a 1.0, have you considered sponsoring the project so that some devs can work full time on it? Hmm.