7 ms·

Alternative perspective on exactly the same data: This kind of developer-driven change does not wind me up, because developers working on products should be ab

Alternative perspective on exactly the same data: This kind of developer-driven change does not wind me up, because developers working on products should be able to reflect on how those products are part of society and if they choose to make changes in their branding, presentation, or diction, they should be able to do so. Mozilla has a pretty rich tradition of employee activism, as we all observed after the Eich debacle, and I suspect employees want their work to make them feel good in terms of alignment with their bedrock principles. This is true even if individual customers oppose their politics, especially since the vast majority of users will never notice this or read a changelog. Symbolic gestures are part of a program of practically increasing social justice. They do not replace more concrete measures, they are additive in addition to them: Mozilla and Thunderbird should still pursue employment equity, charitable works, and other mission-related goals while doing this. Although minor, the expression is authentic, and it is normal for symbolic gestures to precede other measures because it's normal to tackle problems through a combination of taking the most important actions and the easiest (even if minor) actions, the same way turning up the freezer a few degrees might not be the most important thing you can do to reduce your footprint but it is something you can do before you finish reading this post. "Tell" is good advice for changelogs, because the literal purpose of a changelog is to tell the changes that were made. If I'm dumb enough to waste my time reading a changelog (and I obviously am), I do want you to tell me what you actually changed, even if the change is a minor change to diction or a typo fix. Collapsing changelog entries into "changed some in-program text" obfuscates the actual change and does little to demonstrate the actual changes made. Being very worried about a change from "master" to "main" is as authentic as opponents of social justice quoting MLK to project an image of caring about social justice.

ekianjo 5y ago
> I suspect employees want their work to make them feel good in terms of alignment with their bedrock principles. if it makes you feel good to play with words I am not sure if thats a good energy expenditure for your activism. it feels like a cheap way to value signal instead of doing something actually meaningful.
- getlawgdon 5y ago
  Words have meaning and power. How they are used literally changes the discourse. Your participation in this discussion is proof that the example under consideration has impact well beyond "playing with words."
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    yes words have meaning and the present change is wrong because it fails to understand the actual meaning of master.
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Different people can interpret words differently. Replacing 'master' is a very low cost change which, IMO, can improve understanding of what is described. (Like main or root branch or vault password.) So why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage when it doesn't even work that well in Thunderbird?
      - wayneftw 5y ago
        > ...why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage... Clinging? We're all just talking here and we don't have any authority over this software. Are we allowed to have differing opinions about what already took place? I think so. Personally, my opinion is that I laugh at these people for their empty virtue signaling that really doesn't help understanding here in this case. We don't have to be clinging in order to discuss how idiotic we think things are.
      - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
        But the word "master" means a lot in tech. This is like someone changing the word "save" to "store", after many years of use in tech, and everyone knowing the implied meaning, but some minority of users are complaining that "jesus saves, data is stored".
      - dotancohen 5y ago
        > So why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage > when it doesn't even work that well in Thunderbird? What cultural baggage does the word "master" have? And before you throw around the word "slavery" my grandfather, who passed only 14 years ago, was a slave. I have no qualms with the word "master".
Geezus_42 5y ago
My company made the change from blacklist/whitelist to blocklist/allow list over two years ago and people, mostly external, still get annoyed and I just can't understand why. The former is literally one letter different and the latter makes just as much, arguably more, sense than the term it replaced. I get that some people see it as just posturing but you have to start somewhere if you are going to change the culture. Not using colors which are also used to describe people's skin to different between a negative thing and a positive thing is good imo.
- endofreach 5y ago
  I mean honestly, this is typical US stuff. As a european I have never associated blacklist, whitelist or master with any discrimination. Why instead of changing tech wording affecting every dev worldwide who does not care about american pseudo social justice, just do not call dark er skin „black“ and brighter skin „white“? I mean still more people are afraid in the absence of light, hence the dark, than otherwise. And „white“ is often associated with clean, pure. There are psychological effects we can‘t just ignore. Better just stop associating this pink skin with „white“ and darker skin with „brown“ or „black“. I mean I still have to see a „white“ person and a „black“ person in real life. For god‘s sake. Stop finding problems where there are none. Corporate trolling has reached the next level.
  - kenniskrag 5y ago
    > Better just stop associating this pink skin with „white“ and darker skin with „brown“ or „black“. It is not only about colour but about racial identity. This article describe this case: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-jackson-ohio-appalachia-white-black https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-ja...
  - gnu8 5y ago
    I’m glad you don’t have these problems in your European utopia. We still have a lot to work on here - there are race riots every year. Part of our legacy as a very young country that was built with the labor of imported black slaves. Other connotations of the word blacklist include the blacklisting of labor activists and of accused communists during our multiple bouts of anti communist hysteria. The word is charged with ugly meanings and there’s no reason to throw it around casually in a software project.

ekianjo 5y ago

> I suspect employees want their work to make them feel good in terms of alignment with their bedrock principles. if it makes you feel good to play with words I am not sure if thats a good energy expenditure for your activism. it feels like a cheap way to value signal instead of doing something actually meaningful.

getlawgdon 5y ago
Words have meaning and power. How they are used literally changes the discourse. Your participation in this discussion is proof that the example under consideration has impact well beyond "playing with words."
- ekianjo 5y ago
  yes words have meaning and the present change is wrong because it fails to understand the actual meaning of master.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Different people can interpret words differently. Replacing 'master' is a very low cost change which, IMO, can improve understanding of what is described. (Like main or root branch or vault password.) So why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage when it doesn't even work that well in Thunderbird?
    - wayneftw 5y ago
      > ...why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage... Clinging? We're all just talking here and we don't have any authority over this software. Are we allowed to have differing opinions about what already took place? I think so. Personally, my opinion is that I laugh at these people for their empty virtue signaling that really doesn't help understanding here in this case. We don't have to be clinging in order to discuss how idiotic we think things are.
    - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
      But the word "master" means a lot in tech. This is like someone changing the word "save" to "store", after many years of use in tech, and everyone knowing the implied meaning, but some minority of users are complaining that "jesus saves, data is stored".
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > So why cling to a word that has so much cultural baggage > when it doesn't even work that well in Thunderbird? What cultural baggage does the word "master" have? And before you throw around the word "slavery" my grandfather, who passed only 14 years ago, was a slave. I have no qualms with the word "master".

Geezus_42 5y ago

My company made the change from blacklist/whitelist to blocklist/allow list over two years ago and people, mostly external, still get annoyed and I just can't understand why. The former is literally one letter different and the latter makes just as much, arguably more, sense than the term it replaced. I get that some people see it as just posturing but you have to start somewhere if you are going to change the culture. Not using colors which are also used to describe people's skin to different between a negative thing and a positive thing is good imo.

endofreach 5y ago
I mean honestly, this is typical US stuff. As a european I have never associated blacklist, whitelist or master with any discrimination. Why instead of changing tech wording affecting every dev worldwide who does not care about american pseudo social justice, just do not call dark er skin „black“ and brighter skin „white“? I mean still more people are afraid in the absence of light, hence the dark, than otherwise. And „white“ is often associated with clean, pure. There are psychological effects we can‘t just ignore. Better just stop associating this pink skin with „white“ and darker skin with „brown“ or „black“. I mean I still have to see a „white“ person and a „black“ person in real life. For god‘s sake. Stop finding problems where there are none. Corporate trolling has reached the next level.
- kenniskrag 5y ago
  > Better just stop associating this pink skin with „white“ and darker skin with „brown“ or „black“. It is not only about colour but about racial identity. This article describe this case: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-jackson-ohio-appalachia-white-black https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-ja...
- gnu8 5y ago
  I’m glad you don’t have these problems in your European utopia. We still have a lot to work on here - there are race riots every year. Part of our legacy as a very young country that was built with the labor of imported black slaves. Other connotations of the word blacklist include the blacklisting of labor activists and of accused communists during our multiple bouts of anti communist hysteria. The word is charged with ugly meanings and there’s no reason to throw it around casually in a software project.