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What are your thoughts on state actors asking Apple to use this technology to imprison dissidents? This effectively criminalizes anything the state deems unacc

What are your thoughts on state actors asking Apple to use this technology to imprison dissidents? This effectively criminalizes anything the state deems unacceptable, which in some countries includes criticizing the ruling party. Is it right for an American company to open their gates to that?

carom 5y ago
Why has that state actor not already forced Apple to deploy a special firmware image to all citizens via software update functionality? Yes, this can be used to search for banned memes, but if a country has that flex, they would already be doing so.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  Why didn't Apple do this without announcing it? The answer is Apple risks a whistleblower on their hands if they do it secretly, regardless of the targeted country. Remember Google's project Dragonfly? Plus, software needs to be maintained. I don't see how they could do that in perpetuity without a major risk to their valuation. So all moves do need to be made public while the software is created in countries that have a free press.
  - threeseed 5y ago
    So why wouldn't that same whisteblower complain if Apple expands their CSAM detection system to other use cases ? And iOS is a modular operating system. They could easily swap out the Photos.framework for different state actors and support that in perpetuity. They were already doing this when cross-building for ARM/x86.
    - unityByFreedom 5y ago
      > So why wouldn't that same whisteblower complain if Apple expands their CSAM detection system to other use cases ? I assume Apple could make it very difficult, if not impossible, to detect what they're searching for when they are using hashes created and transmitted by all their own hardware and software. But, even if they did publish the hashes and those were somehow verified in free-press countries by a trusted 3rd party, that does nothing for countries with no free press. Such places would have no knowledge of what's being searched for, and that's the whole point. I won't support an American company that helps oppressive countries stymie what little freedom their people have left to connect via the internet. To the extent they are successful, the results of those tools will eventually be aimed at us, either via uninformed people or by using the tools themselves on us. > And iOS is a modular operating system. They could easily swap out the Photos.framework for different state actors and support that in perpetuity. They were already doing this when cross-building for ARM/x86. Sure. And I expect if there were something nefarious there working on behalf of foreign governments then we would eventually hear about it, one way or another. It's a terrible idea that would be abused, and humans are natural pattern recognizers.
      - simondotau 5y ago
        > I assume Apple could make it very difficult, if not impossible, to detect what they're searching for when they are using hashes created and transmitted by all their own hardware and software. Correct, it would be easy to slip in additional hashes without the team knowing what those hashes represented. HOWEVER, as soon as these additional hashes match something, the first person to see them will be an Apple employee performing manual review. When they see a picture of Winnie The Pooh or a photograph of some classified spy plane, they're going know that the CSAM system is being used for purposes other than CSAM.
        05 5y ago
        Very naive to assume those hashes won't be treated differently on the backend. The most logical thing would be to send those directly to the CPC/NSA, since Apple's human review is clearly a smokescreen at the point where non-CP hashes are added.
        simondotau 5y ago
        But someone has to write code to hold multiple sets of hashes. And someone has to write the code which treats reports differently. It all has to be written and maintained. Thus developers at Apple will still know that the system is being used for something other than CSAM.
        NewLogic 5y ago
        Not to worry that is just the "terrorist" hashes
        simondotau 5y ago
        If the human reviewer doesn't see a photograph of a sex act with a prepubescent (NCMEC classification "A1") then it will be rejected.
        themaninthedark 5y ago

carom 5y ago

Why has that state actor not already forced Apple to deploy a special firmware image to all citizens via software update functionality? Yes, this can be used to search for banned memes, but if a country has that flex, they would already be doing so.

unityByFreedom 5y ago
Why didn't Apple do this without announcing it? The answer is Apple risks a whistleblower on their hands if they do it secretly, regardless of the targeted country. Remember Google's project Dragonfly? Plus, software needs to be maintained. I don't see how they could do that in perpetuity without a major risk to their valuation. So all moves do need to be made public while the software is created in countries that have a free press.
- threeseed 5y ago
  So why wouldn't that same whisteblower complain if Apple expands their CSAM detection system to other use cases ? And iOS is a modular operating system. They could easily swap out the Photos.framework for different state actors and support that in perpetuity. They were already doing this when cross-building for ARM/x86.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    > So why wouldn't that same whisteblower complain if Apple expands their CSAM detection system to other use cases ? I assume Apple could make it very difficult, if not impossible, to detect what they're searching for when they are using hashes created and transmitted by all their own hardware and software. But, even if they did publish the hashes and those were somehow verified in free-press countries by a trusted 3rd party, that does nothing for countries with no free press. Such places would have no knowledge of what's being searched for, and that's the whole point. I won't support an American company that helps oppressive countries stymie what little freedom their people have left to connect via the internet. To the extent they are successful, the results of those tools will eventually be aimed at us, either via uninformed people or by using the tools themselves on us. > And iOS is a modular operating system. They could easily swap out the Photos.framework for different state actors and support that in perpetuity. They were already doing this when cross-building for ARM/x86. Sure. And I expect if there were something nefarious there working on behalf of foreign governments then we would eventually hear about it, one way or another. It's a terrible idea that would be abused, and humans are natural pattern recognizers.
    - simondotau 5y ago
      > I assume Apple could make it very difficult, if not impossible, to detect what they're searching for when they are using hashes created and transmitted by all their own hardware and software. Correct, it would be easy to slip in additional hashes without the team knowing what those hashes represented. HOWEVER, as soon as these additional hashes match something, the first person to see them will be an Apple employee performing manual review. When they see a picture of Winnie The Pooh or a photograph of some classified spy plane, they're going know that the CSAM system is being used for purposes other than CSAM.
      - 05 5y ago
        Very naive to assume those hashes won't be treated differently on the backend. The most logical thing would be to send those directly to the CPC/NSA, since Apple's human review is clearly a smokescreen at the point where non-CP hashes are added.
        simondotau 5y ago
        But someone has to write code to hold multiple sets of hashes. And someone has to write the code which treats reports differently. It all has to be written and maintained. Thus developers at Apple will still know that the system is being used for something other than CSAM.
        NewLogic 5y ago
        Not to worry that is just the "terrorist" hashes
        simondotau 5y ago
        If the human reviewer doesn't see a photograph of a sex act with a prepubescent (NCMEC classification "A1") then it will be rejected.
        themaninthedark 5y ago