5 ms·

I have to agree. I was going to counterargue that technically all hacking is executing permissible actions in the sense that the system you're hacking into ends

I have to agree. I was going to counterargue that technically all hacking is executing permissible actions in the sense that the system you're hacking into ends up allowing you to do what you want. That leads to why we have laws around unauthorized access etc., and that leads to digital contracts that need to be interpreted by a human with some ability to enforce their interpretation. So yes. As the main point of digital contracts seems to be that they are self-enforcing, then it seems to follow that there can be no complaining about the results of using them.

ALittleLight 5y ago
I've wondered about things like this with video games. I played RuneScape a while back and one of the things my brother and I would do is lure unsuspecting players into the wilderness to kill them and take their stuff. That stuff, RuneScape gold, weapons, and armor, has some real world value. We took it from other people, often by lying to them (e.g. "follow me into the wilderness, I'll show you something cool"). Could this somehow be construed as a crime? And if not, because everything we did was permissable actions in the game, how could any computer hacking be a crime?
- Crazyontap 5y ago
  Such interesting food for thought. You are deceiving people for your own gains but then you're not breaking any rules (i guess since i don't know much about runescape), and it would really matter if it was an NPC who did that to them.
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    Bringing NPCs into it makes it really interesting. You could imagine an NPC lying to the player in such a way that incautious players might lose game items that are worth real world money. That NPC, in a large MMO, could scam large numbers of people out of a large amount of value. Is that wrong? Is it part of the game? Obviously there would be something wrong if you sold people your digital tokens and then took them away from players - you agreed to give them digital tokens and then took them away. But if an in-game character is making false representations as part of the game, that seems different.
- hnick 5y ago
  In games we usually separate between exploits and hacks. Exploits are vague but typically things allowed by the game, but not intended (or have for more impact than expected). I believe if you lied in the game that would constitute a written/verbal contract and what you did is fraud. Some games enforce written agreements, others say it's the wild west so too bad, this is role playing by a character, not the person. I'm not sure if either has ever been tested in court. For the hacking thing I don't really agree that all hacking is 'allowed', phishing is of course a type of fraud, your access is unauthorised even with the correct credentials - authority to enter a building does not derive from stealing a key from someone. Likewise a buffer overflow is 'allowed' much the same way a window allows itself to be broken by a brick.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    https://www.pcworld.com/article/152673/virtual_theft.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/152673/virtual_theft.html
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - djrogers 5y ago
      That involved a physical beating in the real world, which is clearly a different thing.
      - birdyrooster 5y ago
        Yeah true, but the civil lawsuit was specifically over the theft.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    >... this is role playing by a character, not the person. I'm not sure if either has ever been tested in court. Actually... https://www.gwern.net/docs/rotten.com/library/bio/crime/criminals/patrick-naughton/index.html https://www.gwern.net/docs/rotten.com/library/bio/crime/crim... >Patrick had an interesting mating ritual: Apparently the task of convincing a girl to meet you involves sending her a digital photograph of your wang, as Naughton did on several occasions. He described his flights of fantasy as role-playing as himself, pretending to be a successful, rich executive with everything going his way. When he bragged about running a company and owning a boat in chat sessions, he was telling the truth, unlike so many chatters before him. [...] >If Mickey cried a little that night then certainly Michael Eisner had a bad day after learning that his young Vice-President in charge of E-mail and Chat Rooms had been arrested for, well, very un-Disneylike behavior. [...] >Despite all of the evidence and the decades of prison time hanging over him, Naughton would eventually walk free. The jury in his trial deadlocked over the more serious charge and to avoid a retrial, he plead out to lesser charges. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-dec-10-fi-42422-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-dec-10-fi-42422... Former Internet Exec Says Online Pursuit of Girl Was Role-Playing DEC. 10, 1999 12 AM PT >Taking the stand in his own defense, former Internet executive Patrick Naughton testified Thursday that he never intended to have sex with a minor and that his steamy online encounters with an undercover FBI agent posing as a teenage girl were part of a fantasy life he pursued to escape emotional problems and mounting pressures at work. [...] >Naughton’s unexpected appearance represented a bold move by a defense team that is pursuing what many consider a risky and unprecedented legal strategy. Their central argument is that Naughton’s statements online and subsequent actions aren’t incriminating because they were grounded in an online fantasy world. [...] >While claiming that role-playing is rampant online, Naughton admitted that he always provided accurate information about himself during online chats, even pointing his supposed 13-year-old correspondent--actually an agent--to one Web site that had a news article about him and another that had a picture of his exposed genitals. >Asked why he furnished such information if fantasy was his real objective, Naughton replied: “The role I was playing was a character of me. If you ask my psychiatrist, I have a lot of self-image and ego problems. I was looking for approval.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Naughton#Novel_defense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Naughton#Novel_defense >His line of defense was that he claimed he was persuaded to participate online in a ritualized sexual role-playing exercise, dealing with a mature woman acting as a girl.[14] His then-novel defense, became known as the fantasy defense for pedophiles.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_defense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_defense >The fantasy defense is where a defendant accused of attempting a crime (enticing minors into sexual activity, for example) claims that they never intended to complete the crime. Instead, they claim they were engaged in a fantasy and, in the case of luring a minor, believed they were dealing with an adult.[1] >The fantasy defense was developed by Donald B. Marks, the attorney for Patrick Naughton,[2] the Disney executive who eventually pleaded guilty to traveling in interstate commerce with the intent to have sex with a minor, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2423(b).[3][4][5] The "fantasy defense" used in the Naughton case was novel; however, since the closely watched Naughton fantasy defense was successful, defense lawyers were expected to use it to help other clients.[4] https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/lawreview/vol41/iss2/6/ https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/lawreview/vol41/iss2/6/ >Donald S. Yamagami, Comment, Prosecuting Cyber-Pedophiles: How Can Intent Be Shown in a Virtual World in Light of the Fantasy Defense?, 41 Santa Clara L. Rev. 547 (2000).
- unionpivo 5y ago
  Another game where that happens regularly is Eve online.
  - gego 5y ago
    In EVE it is explicitly allowed
- brey 5y ago
  The laws of physics permit (physically allow) me to punch someone in the face. The laws of my country say if I do that, there will be consequences. This is all about the level of abstraction The ‘laws of physics’ in a game may allow you to do unintended things, it’s a complex system. Doesn’t mean that it’s OK at a higher abstraction.
- jereees 5y ago
  We used to do this in Habbo Hotel. I don’t know how RuneScape worked back then but in Habbo you could buy virtual furniture dropping their valuables into one of our rooms and then kicking them out and making the room private. So, it is different from your example in that “killing” was by-design meant to take stuff from other people, whereas what we did was closer to “fraud” (good luck regulating that in 2006) as other comment said.
- mdiesel 5y ago
  Lures still exist and apparently work in osrs, but they've gotten far more complicated. Unsurprising as osrs gold still has a real world value. Really its the equivalent of the Nigerian Prince email scam and its ilk. KempQ on YouTube does a lot of videos on modern luring methods. There's also a guy on YouTube called Hermano, a former Venezuelan gold farmer, who has some interesting insights into the real world value of osrs gold and why Venezuelans do it.
- Kevin_S 5y ago
  So I scammed at the duel arena for a few years. Made quite a lot of gp, then RWT it all. I know what we did constituted a violation of terms of service, and we were subject to bans at any time. However, I was reasonably confident there was little Jagex could do to pursue legal action against us. Generally, we were relatively small fish compared to things like the Mod Jed scandal. I am not sure the courts would find this to be in any way illegal. But I find it very interesting.

ALittleLight 5y ago

I've wondered about things like this with video games. I played RuneScape a while back and one of the things my brother and I would do is lure unsuspecting players into the wilderness to kill them and take their stuff. That stuff, RuneScape gold, weapons, and armor, has some real world value. We took it from other people, often by lying to them (e.g. "follow me into the wilderness, I'll show you something cool"). Could this somehow be construed as a crime? And if not, because everything we did was permissable actions in the game, how could any computer hacking be a crime?

Crazyontap 5y ago
Such interesting food for thought. You are deceiving people for your own gains but then you're not breaking any rules (i guess since i don't know much about runescape), and it would really matter if it was an NPC who did that to them.
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Bringing NPCs into it makes it really interesting. You could imagine an NPC lying to the player in such a way that incautious players might lose game items that are worth real world money. That NPC, in a large MMO, could scam large numbers of people out of a large amount of value. Is that wrong? Is it part of the game? Obviously there would be something wrong if you sold people your digital tokens and then took them away from players - you agreed to give them digital tokens and then took them away. But if an in-game character is making false representations as part of the game, that seems different.
hnick 5y ago
In games we usually separate between exploits and hacks. Exploits are vague but typically things allowed by the game, but not intended (or have for more impact than expected). I believe if you lied in the game that would constitute a written/verbal contract and what you did is fraud. Some games enforce written agreements, others say it's the wild west so too bad, this is role playing by a character, not the person. I'm not sure if either has ever been tested in court. For the hacking thing I don't really agree that all hacking is 'allowed', phishing is of course a type of fraud, your access is unauthorised even with the correct credentials - authority to enter a building does not derive from stealing a key from someone. Likewise a buffer overflow is 'allowed' much the same way a window allows itself to be broken by a brick.
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  https://www.pcworld.com/article/152673/virtual_theft.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/152673/virtual_theft.html
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - djrogers 5y ago
    That involved a physical beating in the real world, which is clearly a different thing.
    - birdyrooster 5y ago
      Yeah true, but the civil lawsuit was specifically over the theft.
- DonHopkins 5y ago
  >... this is role playing by a character, not the person. I'm not sure if either has ever been tested in court. Actually... https://www.gwern.net/docs/rotten.com/library/bio/crime/criminals/patrick-naughton/index.html https://www.gwern.net/docs/rotten.com/library/bio/crime/crim... >Patrick had an interesting mating ritual: Apparently the task of convincing a girl to meet you involves sending her a digital photograph of your wang, as Naughton did on several occasions. He described his flights of fantasy as role-playing as himself, pretending to be a successful, rich executive with everything going his way. When he bragged about running a company and owning a boat in chat sessions, he was telling the truth, unlike so many chatters before him. [...] >If Mickey cried a little that night then certainly Michael Eisner had a bad day after learning that his young Vice-President in charge of E-mail and Chat Rooms had been arrested for, well, very un-Disneylike behavior. [...] >Despite all of the evidence and the decades of prison time hanging over him, Naughton would eventually walk free. The jury in his trial deadlocked over the more serious charge and to avoid a retrial, he plead out to lesser charges. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-dec-10-fi-42422-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-dec-10-fi-42422... Former Internet Exec Says Online Pursuit of Girl Was Role-Playing DEC. 10, 1999 12 AM PT >Taking the stand in his own defense, former Internet executive Patrick Naughton testified Thursday that he never intended to have sex with a minor and that his steamy online encounters with an undercover FBI agent posing as a teenage girl were part of a fantasy life he pursued to escape emotional problems and mounting pressures at work. [...] >Naughton’s unexpected appearance represented a bold move by a defense team that is pursuing what many consider a risky and unprecedented legal strategy. Their central argument is that Naughton’s statements online and subsequent actions aren’t incriminating because they were grounded in an online fantasy world. [...] >While claiming that role-playing is rampant online, Naughton admitted that he always provided accurate information about himself during online chats, even pointing his supposed 13-year-old correspondent--actually an agent--to one Web site that had a news article about him and another that had a picture of his exposed genitals. >Asked why he furnished such information if fantasy was his real objective, Naughton replied: “The role I was playing was a character of me. If you ask my psychiatrist, I have a lot of self-image and ego problems. I was looking for approval.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Naughton#Novel_defense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Naughton#Novel_defense >His line of defense was that he claimed he was persuaded to participate online in a ritualized sexual role-playing exercise, dealing with a mature woman acting as a girl.[14] His then-novel defense, became known as the fantasy defense for pedophiles.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_defense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_defense >The fantasy defense is where a defendant accused of attempting a crime (enticing minors into sexual activity, for example) claims that they never intended to complete the crime. Instead, they claim they were engaged in a fantasy and, in the case of luring a minor, believed they were dealing with an adult.[1] >The fantasy defense was developed by Donald B. Marks, the attorney for Patrick Naughton,[2] the Disney executive who eventually pleaded guilty to traveling in interstate commerce with the intent to have sex with a minor, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 2423(b).[3][4][5] The "fantasy defense" used in the Naughton case was novel; however, since the closely watched Naughton fantasy defense was successful, defense lawyers were expected to use it to help other clients.[4] https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/lawreview/vol41/iss2/6/ https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/lawreview/vol41/iss2/6/ >Donald S. Yamagami, Comment, Prosecuting Cyber-Pedophiles: How Can Intent Be Shown in a Virtual World in Light of the Fantasy Defense?, 41 Santa Clara L. Rev. 547 (2000).
unionpivo 5y ago
Another game where that happens regularly is Eve online.
- gego 5y ago
  In EVE it is explicitly allowed
brey 5y ago
The laws of physics permit (physically allow) me to punch someone in the face. The laws of my country say if I do that, there will be consequences. This is all about the level of abstraction The ‘laws of physics’ in a game may allow you to do unintended things, it’s a complex system. Doesn’t mean that it’s OK at a higher abstraction.
jereees 5y ago
We used to do this in Habbo Hotel. I don’t know how RuneScape worked back then but in Habbo you could buy virtual furniture dropping their valuables into one of our rooms and then kicking them out and making the room private. So, it is different from your example in that “killing” was by-design meant to take stuff from other people, whereas what we did was closer to “fraud” (good luck regulating that in 2006) as other comment said.
mdiesel 5y ago
Lures still exist and apparently work in osrs, but they've gotten far more complicated. Unsurprising as osrs gold still has a real world value. Really its the equivalent of the Nigerian Prince email scam and its ilk. KempQ on YouTube does a lot of videos on modern luring methods. There's also a guy on YouTube called Hermano, a former Venezuelan gold farmer, who has some interesting insights into the real world value of osrs gold and why Venezuelans do it.
Kevin_S 5y ago
So I scammed at the duel arena for a few years. Made quite a lot of gp, then RWT it all. I know what we did constituted a violation of terms of service, and we were subject to bans at any time. However, I was reasonably confident there was little Jagex could do to pursue legal action against us. Generally, we were relatively small fish compared to things like the Mod Jed scandal. I am not sure the courts would find this to be in any way illegal. But I find it very interesting.