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> it forces Apple/Google to hand over your email address (or other means of communication) to anyone you download an app from so they can spam you Which part o

by _Nat_ 5y ago

> it forces Apple/Google to hand over your email address (or other means of communication) to anyone you download an app from so they can spam you Which part of the text says this? I did see: > (b) INTERFERENCE WITH LEGITIMATE BUSINESS COMMUNICATIONS.—A Covered Company shall not impose restrictions on communications of developers with the users of the App through an App or direct outreach to a user concerning legitimate business offers, such as pricing terms and product or service offerings. But that part doesn't seem to be requiring app-stores to hand over emails, but rather merely prohibits app-stores from controlling communications. Which would seem to be related to, e.g., ["Apple charged over 'anti-competitive' app policies"](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56941173 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56941173), 2021-04-30: > "At the core of this case is Spotify's demand they should be able to advertise alternative deals on their iOS app, a practice that no store in the world allows," it said in a statement.

kbenson 5y ago
> > "At the core of this case is Spotify's demand they should be able to advertise alternative deals on their iOS app, a practice that no store in the world allows," it said in a statement. Which is a ridiculous assertion for Apple to make. Best Buy doesn't control what manufacturers ship in side their boxes. If I buy something from Logitech chances are something in there will mention I can go to logitech.com and buy direct at some point, and if they provide a 10% off coupon or note that some things are cheaper there, Bust Buy isn't going to really know about it much less have anything to say about it. Best Buy might not be happy it there's a coupon for some other non-manufacturer marketplace, but there's not really an incentive for manufacturer to include something like that anyway. And just to drive home how completely similar the types of things sold are, there are plenty of hardware (and software, at least in the past) offerings that Best Buy sells that have a subscription element that Best Buy gets no cut of.
- judge2020 5y ago
  No, it's pretty reasonable - Apple wants their cut (for developing iOS & the hardware), so advertising "hey we don't sell via the App Store, go to our website to purchase" is effectively driving sales via iOS without paying Apple for making that possible.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    No, we're specifically talking about subscriptions here, and Spotify as the example to boot. People weren't browsing around the App Store and randomly coming across Spotify and after trying it out deciding to subscribe, people were instead getting inundated with information about Spotify in everyday life and being told by their friends and family and media they should use it and then looking for it in the App Store. Lack of Spotify in the App Store would have made iOS users less happy with their devices, that's how popular it is and was, and that Apple felt it could cash in on Spotify's success is exactly the problem. I would say the majority of subscription services fall into the same category, to a lesser degree. People don't discover Hulu, or HBO, or Netflix, or Disney Plus through the App Store. They go there looking for them because subscription services live and die by marketing and word of mouth, as people want to know whether it's worth signing up first.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Emphasis on it being done via iOS, not on the "figuring out who drove this person to become a paying subscriber". Apple made the device and the operating system: their cut, both upon sale of the device AND via in-app purchases/subscriptions thereafter, is part of the profit model of that devices over the lifetime of the device (including devices introduced 6 years ago, which will arguably take more time optimizing for when developing the new OS version) and goes towards that development.
      - kbenson 5y ago
        Funny how that 30% cut applying to subscriptions only rolled out years after the store was already present, and apps with subscriptions had already been for sale for years. If you want to make a case that the cut is needed to run the Apple Pay network (which IIRC when introduced is when they started charging for all purchases through it) and make sure that runs correctly, then fine. But the whole point here is that companies want to opt out of that network, or to clearly communicate that Apple's extra features cost them and they are passing that cost on to the consumer if they choose to pay it (either pay through linked Apple payment account with a higher cost subscription, or pay direct to the company in a different manner). What this is, very clearly, is Apple limiting information allowed to be displayed to customers at time of purchase if it's on an Apple device. Sine free markets only work as well as the information available to consumers, this is anti-free market, and anti-consumer. The only reason to not provide information to consumers about their choices is when you are trying to make them make a choice they wouldn't make if they had all the information. Any argument about doing it for their own good falls flat in the face of the fact you could just give them more information about why it's better for them. If they still choose not to use it, the only respectful way to treat that is that those people weighed their choices and decided what was best for them. Anything else is extremely anti-consumer, and when it's multiple companies colluding together to do so, we have very well known laws against it.

by _Nat_ 5y ago

kbenson 5y ago

> > "At the core of this case is Spotify's demand they should be able to advertise alternative deals on their iOS app, a practice that no store in the world allows," it said in a statement. Which is a ridiculous assertion for Apple to make. Best Buy doesn't control what manufacturers ship in side their boxes. If I buy something from Logitech chances are something in there will mention I can go to logitech.com and buy direct at some point, and if they provide a 10% off coupon or note that some things are cheaper there, Bust Buy isn't going to really know about it much less have anything to say about it. Best Buy might not be happy it there's a coupon for some other non-manufacturer marketplace, but there's not really an incentive for manufacturer to include something like that anyway. And just to drive home how completely similar the types of things sold are, there are plenty of hardware (and software, at least in the past) offerings that Best Buy sells that have a subscription element that Best Buy gets no cut of.

judge2020 5y ago
No, it's pretty reasonable - Apple wants their cut (for developing iOS & the hardware), so advertising "hey we don't sell via the App Store, go to our website to purchase" is effectively driving sales via iOS without paying Apple for making that possible.
- kbenson 5y ago
  No, we're specifically talking about subscriptions here, and Spotify as the example to boot. People weren't browsing around the App Store and randomly coming across Spotify and after trying it out deciding to subscribe, people were instead getting inundated with information about Spotify in everyday life and being told by their friends and family and media they should use it and then looking for it in the App Store. Lack of Spotify in the App Store would have made iOS users less happy with their devices, that's how popular it is and was, and that Apple felt it could cash in on Spotify's success is exactly the problem. I would say the majority of subscription services fall into the same category, to a lesser degree. People don't discover Hulu, or HBO, or Netflix, or Disney Plus through the App Store. They go there looking for them because subscription services live and die by marketing and word of mouth, as people want to know whether it's worth signing up first.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Emphasis on it being done via iOS, not on the "figuring out who drove this person to become a paying subscriber". Apple made the device and the operating system: their cut, both upon sale of the device AND via in-app purchases/subscriptions thereafter, is part of the profit model of that devices over the lifetime of the device (including devices introduced 6 years ago, which will arguably take more time optimizing for when developing the new OS version) and goes towards that development.
    - kbenson 5y ago
      Funny how that 30% cut applying to subscriptions only rolled out years after the store was already present, and apps with subscriptions had already been for sale for years. If you want to make a case that the cut is needed to run the Apple Pay network (which IIRC when introduced is when they started charging for all purchases through it) and make sure that runs correctly, then fine. But the whole point here is that companies want to opt out of that network, or to clearly communicate that Apple's extra features cost them and they are passing that cost on to the consumer if they choose to pay it (either pay through linked Apple payment account with a higher cost subscription, or pay direct to the company in a different manner). What this is, very clearly, is Apple limiting information allowed to be displayed to customers at time of purchase if it's on an Apple device. Sine free markets only work as well as the information available to consumers, this is anti-free market, and anti-consumer. The only reason to not provide information to consumers about their choices is when you are trying to make them make a choice they wouldn't make if they had all the information. Any argument about doing it for their own good falls flat in the face of the fact you could just give them more information about why it's better for them. If they still choose not to use it, the only respectful way to treat that is that those people weighed their choices and decided what was best for them. Anything else is extremely anti-consumer, and when it's multiple companies colluding together to do so, we have very well known laws against it.