7 ms·

I was with you until this somehow turned into "both sides are equally bad". We should absolutely push for greater transparency and verifiability into the intern

by buu700 5y ago

I was with you until this somehow turned into "both sides are equally bad". We should absolutely push for greater transparency and verifiability into the internals of such critical infrastructure. The fact that one side has not prioritized this isn't similar to the other side's repeated attempts to overthrow our government.

TechBro8615 5y ago
Wait, which side are you talking about? Is it the same side that’s been pushing election security bills with the most basic attempts to improve security of elections? We don’t even need security – we need confidence. And this recent idea that it takes weeks to count votes, that we might not know the results for weeks – is completely unacceptable and is already doing irreparable damage to people’s faith in elections.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  Is that really a recent thing though? Or has it always taken some places weeks to count votes, just not in close states?
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    It's recent because of the huge amount of write in ballots. Usually the winner is called the night of because they* just ignore the mail in numbers, even in battleground states. This year, there were too many (and they were too different a population from the in person ballots) to do that. * "They" meaning the news media. The official vote took longer and counted the mail in ballots
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      Ah yes, COVID. And then some states passed laws that the mail in ballots couldn't start being counted until after election day.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  > this recent idea that it takes weeks to count votes, that we might not know the results for weeks – is completely unacceptable Why on earth would that be? The "counting period" was originally set at 5 weeks. Between laws saying that you cannot start counting mail in ballots before the close of polls on election day, laws that (rightly) limit how many hours that can be spent counting ballots, etc. I'm not sure how to square that with instant results. Maybe we just be patient counting the scores in a contest that takes 18 months to run?
  - TechBro8615 5y ago
    You have a super computer in your pocket. There is no reason counting votes should take any longer than it takes to receive them.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      You want to trust democracy to OCR? Heck, there are lawsuits where humans disagree. But, even if you ignore that two individuals (or three) representing all the candidates each count by hand a stack of ten, have to agree, sign off that they agree, etc. I think you underestimate other problems. You're focused on the counting. Just consider how long it takes to open the outer envelope, check the signature on the inner envelope (again, by multiple people who represent different campaigns), and physically remove and unfold that sheet of paper. Now multiply by several million. Add in some extra time for managing stack of ten ballots. Or, to put it another way, we don't vote with a phone app. We are willing to pay extra for security.
    - dillondoyle 5y ago
      Addition is fast. Opening ballots, verifying signatures, checking voter is legit, and then marking it all down takes time. Especially when bound by law to not open envelopes until 7pm eday.
      - TechBro8615 5y ago
        On another thread here, someone was explaining to me that mail-in ballots are separated from their provenance by design. So what exactly are these election workers spending hours doing to “verify signatures” and “check voter is legit?”
- thinkcontext 5y ago
  Is this a joke? The side that was chasing after nonsense like Italian satellites, bamboo fibers, etc and firing AGs that wouldn't play ball is the side that is seeking to instill confidence?! Its a good thing that side has now been busy changing laws to allow themselves to overrule election results, I know that instills confidence in me.
  - TechBro8615 5y ago
    I can point to examples of clowns on the blue team too. This logical fallacy of “crazy by association” seems to be an increasingly popular trend in online political discussion. I wonder how many people simply choose not to engage.
    - thinkcontext 5y ago
      Except that your Italian satellite clowns are the ones in control of your party and are purging anyone who doesn't toe the clown line from it.
      - TechBro8615 5y ago
        By “purging,” do you mean that the red team is banning people they disagree with from speaking on the websites they own? And I honestly don’t even know who you’re talking about but I assume it’s the pillow/pcap guy. Have you heard about the president’s son, or the New York governor, or the speaker of the house who moonlights as a prolific stock trader? Good people are not leading us.
        thinkcontext 5y ago
        Trump is the leader of your party. He is the one that had Meadows send Italian satellites to DOJ and all the other nonsense. He is the one that axed Barr after Barr said there was no evidence to support the crazy that Trump was spewing. He's the one purging people from your party that speak out against this insanity. Your other whataboutisms are weak sauce compared with this. In particular the Cuomo one is not good for you, he's out, while your party continues to embrace the p**y grabber that has a higher harassment allegation count.
getlawgdon 5y ago
Thank you SO much for this. The false equivalency fallacy is part of the problem. The misdeeds on the sides are absolutely asymmetrical.
TeeMassive 5y ago
> the other side's repeated attempts to overthrow our government. Are you talking about Russia or the Federalist Society SCOTUS picks or the rioters who were let in by the few security guards remaining after the Capitol security was lowered or the Big Tech services that should be declared as political donations but aren't?
- buu700 5y ago
  To be more specific, I was referring to: * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election * Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts (including having broken precedent to rush a SCOTUS appointment during the election, which could have changed the outcome of the coup attempt in a different timeline) * 1/6 * Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-142526805.html https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...), alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering
  - TeeMassive 5y ago
    > * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election This is implying that default mail-in voting was a way to get Democrats elected in the first place. (which it was given how mail-in voting was the source of the Democrats advance when they arrived) > Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts Challenging elections integrity in the courts are what insure the process is transparent and followed in the first place. This makes no sense by definition. Just because a SCOTUS nominee was nominated just before doesn't change anything and is still entirely within the Constitution. Because Democrats got unlucky on the retirement / death draw during this presidency doesn't mean a "coup". And by the way, it happened before. > 1/6 Not a coup by any stretch of the imagination (no weapons) and barely a riot given the lack of destruction and violence. Also why leave out how security was reduced, that the FBI had informants and that Trump even proposed to increase security? > Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" I get it that you are not familiar with Bush v. Gore and how it was the big rig for years? > and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14 https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...) It's easy to pick a random clown in a camp and then zoom 1000x to paint a bad picture: "The cards, featuring a seven-point plan, appear to have been made by a group called Patriots Soar, which is not connected to the organisers of CPAC" > alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering Gerrymandering happens in blue districts too by the way, can can only do so much (elections results still mostly 50/50 percentage wise). And the "voter suppression" are a joke when you read the details of them since the measures being implemented are the same that are found in Canada (showing ID with proof of your address, registering to vote, having a reason to vote by mail, which used to be a Democrat talking point during the Bush/Obama years by the way).
lettergram 5y ago
You do realize, both sides are claiming the other is trying to overthrow the government, right? Both have, in my view, reasonable arguments on why they feel that way. Try to zoom out and look at your comment from the 3rd person view. The right believes the left stole an election (coup), they believe they have evidence to prove it. The left saw Jan 6 on the corporate news and believes they have the evidence to prove Trump attempted to seize government. Note, none of the people charged for Jan 6 was for sedition. So the evidence really isn't there either. If you take a step back and try to see both perspectives, perhaps it's possible to relate again.
- buu700 5y ago
  Sure both sides are claiming it, but only one side is correct. On the right, we have: * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election * Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts (including having broken precedent to rush a SCOTUS appointment during the election, which could have changed the outcome of the coup attempt in a different timeline) * 1/6 * Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-142526805.html https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...), alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering And the left has: * Failed to advocate for open source voting systems (which isn't a widely known or politically relevant issue on either side at present) * Pushed for stronger voting rights and increased voter participation — both uncontroversially positive properties of a democracy, but also happen to benefit the Democratic Party at the current moment * Proposed measures in the For the People Act that were arguably overly ambitious or aggressive in the current political environment, such as stricter campaign finance regulations, which were promptly renegotiated within their own party ranks To frame these as comparable is borderline gaslighting.
  - lettergram 5y ago
    It’s frankly exhausting to have discussions when both sides live in their own worlds. You sound arrogant, “only one side is correct and it’s my side” Every day I switch between msnbc, nbc, warroom.org, breaking points, Ben Shapiro and Tim pool. Probably ~6-8hrs a day I listen to content at double speed (while doing other stuff). Every single one has their own take, but just to get you up-to-date with what the right believes: * BLM and Antifa caused billions in damages. Harassing or attacking everyone who disagreed with ideology (they were coming to senators homes) * in some places this is leading to the reintroduction of segregation https://atlantablackstar.com/2021/08/10/it-was-just-disbelief-parent-files-complaint-against-atlanta-elementary-school-after-learning-the-principal-segregated-students-based-on-race/ https://atlantablackstar.com/2021/08/10/it-was-just-disbelie... * FBI spied on trump on Clinton and Obama’s behalf. Utilizing a known fabricated document (fabricated to keep business with the Clinton foundation - see uranium one): https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/first-declassified-russia-document-steeles-confessional https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-sc... * election laws were changed last minute, broken among other things to effect a coup and they brag about it: https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ * more people voted in 2020 than were registered in 2016 or 2018. With a 93% then out rate. https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registered-voters-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registe... * here’s a couple video explaining some of their concerns about the election https://rumble.com/vkyxju-retired-u.s.-army-colonel-phil-waldron-your-wake-up-call.html https://rumble.com/vkyxju-retired-u.s.-army-colonel-phil-wal... https://rumble.com/vkyzgb-mike-lindell-cyber-symposium-dr.-douglas-g-frank.html https://rumble.com/vkyzgb-mike-lindell-cyber-symposium-dr.-d... The list goes on and on...

by buu700 5y ago

TechBro8615 5y ago

Wait, which side are you talking about? Is it the same side that’s been pushing election security bills with the most basic attempts to improve security of elections? We don’t even need security – we need confidence. And this recent idea that it takes weeks to count votes, that we might not know the results for weeks – is completely unacceptable and is already doing irreparable damage to people’s faith in elections.

amanaplanacanal 5y ago
Is that really a recent thing though? Or has it always taken some places weeks to count votes, just not in close states?
- HWR_14 5y ago
  It's recent because of the huge amount of write in ballots. Usually the winner is called the night of because they* just ignore the mail in numbers, even in battleground states. This year, there were too many (and they were too different a population from the in person ballots) to do that. * "They" meaning the news media. The official vote took longer and counted the mail in ballots
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    Ah yes, COVID. And then some states passed laws that the mail in ballots couldn't start being counted until after election day.
HWR_14 5y ago
> this recent idea that it takes weeks to count votes, that we might not know the results for weeks – is completely unacceptable Why on earth would that be? The "counting period" was originally set at 5 weeks. Between laws saying that you cannot start counting mail in ballots before the close of polls on election day, laws that (rightly) limit how many hours that can be spent counting ballots, etc. I'm not sure how to square that with instant results. Maybe we just be patient counting the scores in a contest that takes 18 months to run?
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  You have a super computer in your pocket. There is no reason counting votes should take any longer than it takes to receive them.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    You want to trust democracy to OCR? Heck, there are lawsuits where humans disagree. But, even if you ignore that two individuals (or three) representing all the candidates each count by hand a stack of ten, have to agree, sign off that they agree, etc. I think you underestimate other problems. You're focused on the counting. Just consider how long it takes to open the outer envelope, check the signature on the inner envelope (again, by multiple people who represent different campaigns), and physically remove and unfold that sheet of paper. Now multiply by several million. Add in some extra time for managing stack of ten ballots. Or, to put it another way, we don't vote with a phone app. We are willing to pay extra for security.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    Addition is fast. Opening ballots, verifying signatures, checking voter is legit, and then marking it all down takes time. Especially when bound by law to not open envelopes until 7pm eday.
    - TechBro8615 5y ago
      On another thread here, someone was explaining to me that mail-in ballots are separated from their provenance by design. So what exactly are these election workers spending hours doing to “verify signatures” and “check voter is legit?”
thinkcontext 5y ago
Is this a joke? The side that was chasing after nonsense like Italian satellites, bamboo fibers, etc and firing AGs that wouldn't play ball is the side that is seeking to instill confidence?! Its a good thing that side has now been busy changing laws to allow themselves to overrule election results, I know that instills confidence in me.
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  I can point to examples of clowns on the blue team too. This logical fallacy of “crazy by association” seems to be an increasingly popular trend in online political discussion. I wonder how many people simply choose not to engage.
  - thinkcontext 5y ago
    Except that your Italian satellite clowns are the ones in control of your party and are purging anyone who doesn't toe the clown line from it.
    - TechBro8615 5y ago
      By “purging,” do you mean that the red team is banning people they disagree with from speaking on the websites they own? And I honestly don’t even know who you’re talking about but I assume it’s the pillow/pcap guy. Have you heard about the president’s son, or the New York governor, or the speaker of the house who moonlights as a prolific stock trader? Good people are not leading us.
      - thinkcontext 5y ago
        Trump is the leader of your party. He is the one that had Meadows send Italian satellites to DOJ and all the other nonsense. He is the one that axed Barr after Barr said there was no evidence to support the crazy that Trump was spewing. He's the one purging people from your party that speak out against this insanity. Your other whataboutisms are weak sauce compared with this. In particular the Cuomo one is not good for you, he's out, while your party continues to embrace the p**y grabber that has a higher harassment allegation count.

getlawgdon 5y ago

Thank you SO much for this. The false equivalency fallacy is part of the problem. The misdeeds on the sides are absolutely asymmetrical.

TeeMassive 5y ago

> the other side's repeated attempts to overthrow our government. Are you talking about Russia or the Federalist Society SCOTUS picks or the rioters who were let in by the few security guards remaining after the Capitol security was lowered or the Big Tech services that should be declared as political donations but aren't?

buu700 5y ago
To be more specific, I was referring to: * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election * Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts (including having broken precedent to rush a SCOTUS appointment during the election, which could have changed the outcome of the coup attempt in a different timeline) * 1/6 * Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-142526805.html https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...), alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering
- TeeMassive 5y ago
  > * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election This is implying that default mail-in voting was a way to get Democrats elected in the first place. (which it was given how mail-in voting was the source of the Democrats advance when they arrived) > Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts Challenging elections integrity in the courts are what insure the process is transparent and followed in the first place. This makes no sense by definition. Just because a SCOTUS nominee was nominated just before doesn't change anything and is still entirely within the Constitution. Because Democrats got unlucky on the retirement / death draw during this presidency doesn't mean a "coup". And by the way, it happened before. > 1/6 Not a coup by any stretch of the imagination (no weapons) and barely a riot given the lack of destruction and violence. Also why leave out how security was reduced, that the FBI had informants and that Trump even proposed to increase security? > Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" I get it that you are not familiar with Bush v. Gore and how it was the big rig for years? > and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14 https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...) It's easy to pick a random clown in a camp and then zoom 1000x to paint a bad picture: "The cards, featuring a seven-point plan, appear to have been made by a group called Patriots Soar, which is not connected to the organisers of CPAC" > alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering Gerrymandering happens in blue districts too by the way, can can only do so much (elections results still mostly 50/50 percentage wise). And the "voter suppression" are a joke when you read the details of them since the measures being implemented are the same that are found in Canada (showing ID with proof of your address, registering to vote, having a reason to vote by mail, which used to be a Democrat talking point during the Bush/Obama years by the way).

lettergram 5y ago

You do realize, both sides are claiming the other is trying to overthrow the government, right? Both have, in my view, reasonable arguments on why they feel that way. Try to zoom out and look at your comment from the 3rd person view. The right believes the left stole an election (coup), they believe they have evidence to prove it. The left saw Jan 6 on the corporate news and believes they have the evidence to prove Trump attempted to seize government. Note, none of the people charged for Jan 6 was for sedition. So the evidence really isn't there either. If you take a step back and try to see both perspectives, perhaps it's possible to relate again.

buu700 5y ago
Sure both sides are claiming it, but only one side is correct. On the right, we have: * USPS sabotage and state-level voter suppression measures in urban areas leading up to the 2020 election * Post-election soft coup attempt via the courts (including having broken precedent to rush a SCOTUS appointment during the election, which could have changed the outcome of the coup attempt in a different timeline) * 1/6 * Ongoing propagation of the "big lie" and scheming to overturn the election (https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-142526805.html https://news.yahoo.com/bizarre-seven-point-plan-reinstate-14...), alongside continuing implementation of state-level voter suppression measures and gerrymandering And the left has: * Failed to advocate for open source voting systems (which isn't a widely known or politically relevant issue on either side at present) * Pushed for stronger voting rights and increased voter participation — both uncontroversially positive properties of a democracy, but also happen to benefit the Democratic Party at the current moment * Proposed measures in the For the People Act that were arguably overly ambitious or aggressive in the current political environment, such as stricter campaign finance regulations, which were promptly renegotiated within their own party ranks To frame these as comparable is borderline gaslighting.
- lettergram 5y ago
  It’s frankly exhausting to have discussions when both sides live in their own worlds. You sound arrogant, “only one side is correct and it’s my side” Every day I switch between msnbc, nbc, warroom.org, breaking points, Ben Shapiro and Tim pool. Probably ~6-8hrs a day I listen to content at double speed (while doing other stuff). Every single one has their own take, but just to get you up-to-date with what the right believes: * BLM and Antifa caused billions in damages. Harassing or attacking everyone who disagreed with ideology (they were coming to senators homes) * in some places this is leading to the reintroduction of segregation https://atlantablackstar.com/2021/08/10/it-was-just-disbelief-parent-files-complaint-against-atlanta-elementary-school-after-learning-the-principal-segregated-students-based-on-race/ https://atlantablackstar.com/2021/08/10/it-was-just-disbelie... * FBI spied on trump on Clinton and Obama’s behalf. Utilizing a known fabricated document (fabricated to keep business with the Clinton foundation - see uranium one): https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-scandals/first-declassified-russia-document-steeles-confessional https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-sc... * election laws were changed last minute, broken among other things to effect a coup and they brag about it: https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/ * more people voted in 2020 than were registered in 2016 or 2018. With a 93% then out rate. https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registered-voters-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registe... * here’s a couple video explaining some of their concerns about the election https://rumble.com/vkyxju-retired-u.s.-army-colonel-phil-waldron-your-wake-up-call.html https://rumble.com/vkyxju-retired-u.s.-army-colonel-phil-wal... https://rumble.com/vkyzgb-mike-lindell-cyber-symposium-dr.-douglas-g-frank.html https://rumble.com/vkyzgb-mike-lindell-cyber-symposium-dr.-d... The list goes on and on...