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On Safety: A Word From Airbnb

162 points by ssclafani 15y ago

scottkduncan 15y ago
> Creating a dedicated Trust & Safety department. This sure is where things start to get tricky in managing the organizational growth of a company. Something like this happens and the reaction is to create a new department. That's understandable and demonstrates commitment to tackling the issue at hand. But then another adverse event (inevitably) happens and people will complain complain that the "Trust & Safety" department was isolated from the rest of the company and that those topics now have to get mainstreamed (or insert other buzzword) across the whole company. Just one of the many challenges that comes with great success.
DanielRibeiro 15y ago
From these efforts, I get the impression that AirBnB really epitomizes the Be Good argument (where Don't be Evil isn't enough)[1] [1] http://paulgraham.com/good.html http://paulgraham.com/good.html
- dredmorbius 15y ago
  That's generous of you, at this stage. I'd say they got off to a rocky start on this (both in the initial response to EJ, and the subsequent response to the public disclosure of the incident). AirBnB could have tried to get in front of the story, but didn't. I can chalk a lot of that up to a green team running scared, though trying to do the right thing. I'm reserving final judgment on this until more is known.
- MisterMerkin 15y ago
  You've got to be kidding me. Are you not aware of AirBnB's history and how they built their userbase?
  - pg 15y ago
    I replied to the other comment you made saying the same thing elsewhere on this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2815183 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2815183
    - MisterMerkin 15y ago
      Thanks.
- alnayyir 15y ago
  No.
latch 15y ago
There continues to be a major point of conflict between EJ's concerns and AirBnB's position. In fact, the point of conflict is actually within AirBnB's safety policies itself: 1 - Private messaging that lets users learn about each other prior to booking, without revealing private information 2 - Reservation system that allows hosts to accept or decline guests, giving them complete control over who books their space I'm sorry, but that just isn't consistent - which is, I believe, a major point EJ is trying to get across. How can you have "complete control over who books [your] space" while not "revealing private information." It's so blatantly inconsistent that it just comes out sounding like marketing drivel. The fundamental issue, as I see it, is that as long as private information is withheld, you not only have very limited control, it also simply isn't safe. What are AirBnB's reasons for blocking the exchange of private information? Is it their form for DRM? Or is there really a good reason that isn't about protecting AirBnB's revenue stream?
- trjordan 15y ago
  Before booking, AirBnB does not allow you swap personal information, primarily so you can't go outside their system to make your arrangements. There are both financial and community-building reasons for this. Once the payment has been made (well before the guest arrives), the host gets access to all of the private information of the guest. I believe they could chose to rescind the offer of hospitality at this point -- they haven't received the money, so if they are uncomfortable with the individual, they can still do something about it. I know this is an emotional issue, but their response was hardly "blantantly inconsistent ... marketing drivel."
  - latch 15y ago
    Can you elaborate though on the exact timing of the exchange? EJ's story makes it sound insufficient: "Thus by the time this reservation was confirmed and I was given Dj’s email address and phone number, I was on a plane heading East, and he/she was armed with my welcoming instructions on where to pick up the keys to my apartment." For the rest of it, I'm not saying that the response is inconsistent. I'm saying that keeping information private is inconsistent with safety (which is what EJ's argument was). This is especially true (and concerning) when they say that keeping information private is a safety feature, but it seems everyone thinks its a driven by financial motivation. It's slightly frustrating when someone says "we do this for safety", but the reality is they do it for money and it reduces safety.
jmjerlecki 15y ago
This post is in the right direction and I applaud Brian for stepping up, but this has taken too long for this to happen. If you note in EJ's post, she states that she would not be compensated for any damages and she was on the hook. Airbnb didn't step up to the plate until it was posted on Techcrunch. This has been simmering since June and they really could have gotten ahead of this and handled this entirely different. Imagine had they come out in June and fessed up and said this is how we are going to handle it. EJ we are taking care of everything, we are instituting new policies, looking into insurance and we will have a dedicated 24 hour hotline for customer support. They would have set the precedent for how to handle these situations. Instead they did like everyone else and only dealt with it once it became a much larger issue. /sidenote if I was Brian I would by no means be quoting EJ's blog post as proof to saying they handled this correctly. Because they didn't.
- SoftwareMaven 15y ago
  They were hoping nobody would notice. I'm sure they've been working on changes as a result of this since June and have had a response plan in place as well, but in their ideal world, this would have never made it to the top of HN and other sites, and TechCrunch would have never gotten involved. Why point people towards something that will always give you a black eye when they could say "see the new features we have to keep you safe" instead? FWIW, similar to PayPal paying well north of $100M to really learn how to do fraud prevention, AirBnB should consider the cost of making things right for her as part of the cost of learning how to rent safely. Not doing so is a very short-term decision that reduces trust in their ecosystem and trust is fundamental to their success.
- mlinsey 15y ago
  this has taken too long for this to happen. If you note in EJ's post, she states that she would not be compensated for any damages and she was on the hook. Airbnb didn't step up to the plate until it was posted on Techcrunch. Is this really the case? EJ's post from June says this in the fifth paragraph: "They have offered to help me recover emotionally and financially". I cannot find anything in her original post that contradicts that. Can you point me to a paragraph number and sentence where you are getting the info that she originally would not be compensated? The only source for the idea that EJ would not be compensated seems to be the original TC article from today. That was sourced from a company spokesperson who was citing policy, and was contradicted by Chesky's post here. Given the original blog post, it seems a lot more probable that this is a detail that TC (and Airbnb's spokesperson) got wrong, not that Airbnb changed their mind.
axiom 15y ago
Can we agree that the host here is at least partially responsible for what happened? First, let me say that what happened was horrible, and the person who did the damage should go to jail for a long long time. AirBnB should cover the cost of all damages as a gesture of goodwill. It's really a shame that this kind of stuff can happen, but the reality (that I'd hope most people understand) is that not 100% of the population is good and decent (maybe it's 99%, maybe it's 98%, but it's certainly not 100%) Given that every mature adult is aware of this, the way the host acted was pretty irresponsible and was kind of inviting disaster. She literally left a key for a total stranger to her home, without doing ANY due-diligence. Someone basically sent her an email, and she said "okey-dokey, here's the keys, have fun." What are the odds that if you do that 50 or 100 times that something like this doesn't happen? Also, how many people would be careless enough to do that? Seriously, it's pretty tragic what happened and I really feel for the host, but it rubs me the wrong way that AirBnB is getting this massive amount of bad press when in fairness they just posted a listing and handled the transaction. Could they have more security measures in place? sure, but the way the host acted, I'm really not convinced anything would have made a difference here. If you give keys to your place to a random stranger without so much as meeting them or getting basic information about them, then you're going to get burned.
- georgemcbay 15y ago
  "She literally left a key for a total stranger to her home, without doing ANY due-diligence. Someone basically sent her an email, and she said "okey-dokey, here's the keys, have fun."" I don't use Airbnb from either side, but isn't the big problem here that you can't do due dilligence? As I understand it (and again, as a non-user maybe I am wrong), Airbnb pretty much blocks you from knowing too much about your temporary renter as a measure to avoid you using them as a match up service and then doing the deal directly to avoid paying them their fee.
  - alanfalcon 15y ago
    And that's a good reason to avoid Airbnb, not a good reason to give a stranger your keys.
  - 15y ago
jsherry 15y ago
Here's what you see when you search the term "insurance" on airbnb.com: http://www.airbnb.com/help/search?q=insurance http://www.airbnb.com/help/search?q=insurance Something like this would be more reassuring: http://support.getaround.com/kb/insurance-infractions/how-does-insurance-work-when-i-use-getaround http://support.getaround.com/kb/insurance-infractions/how-do...
- mattbee 15y ago
  The article says they are working to offer an "insurance option" to hosts. So what, if it happens again to a host who hasn't taken this option, they're screwed? What would have been more reassuring is saying "airbnb will of course fully indemnify hosts against guests damaging their property" - as they've had to do in this recent case. He seems to say that airbnb are working in the opposite direction in future though.
mcantelon 15y ago
None of this sounds like it addresses the underlying problem: you're relying on them to vet the guest yet you're the one with the most to lose if they get it wrong.
- hullo 15y ago
  Well, yes and no. For the sake of argument, let's accept that AirBnb is worth $1.3 billion dollars. I can only imagine that a large portion of that valuation is based on the potential upside that would come with becoming a consumer success and disrupting the hotel industry etc etc etc. What portion of that valuation will disappear if the perception that AirBnb "isn't safe" takes hold? To make the math easier, let's guess 10% (although it's potentially 100%). 1.3 billion / 10 is 130 million dollars, which is probably much more than the value of the stuff in your house. All of which is a long way of saying that AirBnb is actually heavily incentivized to get this right.
commanda 15y ago
Unfortunately, no matter what safety mechanisms Airbnb puts in place, messes like this are still going to happen. Even if there were a reliable rating or karma system, and you could exchange messages with a potential renter before accepting them, you will still have the "Ebay problem" - where a malicious party gains access to a trusted user's account and uses it to fool people into renting to them.
physcab 15y ago
I want to believe that people are fundamentally good as well and there is definitely evidence that supports that. But this incident has left a bad taste in my mouth, and their response hasn't made me feel any better. It's not like Ebay where if you have a bad experience, your loss is stemmed to the material good you have given away. On AirBnb, the potential harm in the worst case for both a guest and a host are massive -- total material loss or even rape or death. I'm sure many people find value using their service, but after today, the risk is so clearly present that I don't think you can pay me to use it.
- AndyJPartridge 15y ago
  One faces the posibility of those horrible loses each day, but obviously you are increasing your risk with AirBnB. But a nutter having your key is just a minor detail if entry is desired; and with AirBnB at least you get a cash reward for your risk.
  - go37pi 15y ago
    You're right about the financial expected value, but I think you might be disregarding the trust aspect of the transaction, which I think was why Airbnb was so successful. Buying into the brand reinforces a particularly optimistic world view that people who are likely to use Airbnb enjoy. Plus, when you are giving your key to another person, the risk is not just monetary, but the additional emotional risk of just being violated. I think it was very telling that EJ was particularly betrayed by the lies in the ongoing email updates and not just the monetary loss.
    - jamesteow 15y ago
      Exactly. People (including myself who used the service) felt that it was more legit than Craigslist when in fact, they have the same financial protection.
      - AndyJPartridge 15y ago
        With respect, your misconception on safety levels are not a fault of AirBnB. It's our trusting nature. I've read lots of the discussions about this today, and I think I'm the first to post this: http://www.airbnb.com/home/safety http://www.airbnb.com/home/safety It is no better or worse than Craigslist, as humans are involved. Some humans always screw things up for the rest of us.
spolsky 15y ago
I can't stop thinking that this was a top-secret hit job by some shady character working for the hotel industry looking to derail AirBnB's next fund-raising round. Heck, if Nixon could do it, why couldn't The American Hotel & Lodging Association? So my question to you is: am I quite paranoid or merely rather paranoid?
- te_platt 15y ago
  Past that - maybe sys admin paranoid.
- hboon 15y ago
  I don't think you are even paranoid by thinking about this. It's certainly possible. Not only to derail fund-raising, it's also a direct PR hit which can cause slowdowns in expansion and feature development.
- learc83 15y ago
  It does sound just too ridiculous. I mean it's one thing to find the safe and steal credit cards, but I find it more than a little odd that he burned a spare set of sheets in the fireplace.
  - mayoff 15y ago
    The sheets could have simply been stolen.
  - Mz 15y ago
    Someone elsewhere (in another related discussion on HN) suggested the place was probably used as a meth lab. They could have been destroying evidence or some such.
- almightygod 15y ago
  I think if the broader public knew about this it could damage AirBNB but at this point I'm guessing 90% of AirBNB customer base doesn't follow TC or HN and therefore will not be aware of the substantiated risk to their possessions. Maybe after the 10th or 11th serious robbery/rape/murder then This American Life will make an interesting show about it.
hdeo 15y ago
I am sure Airbnb has / is thinking about this already. Still the best solution is transparency and badging. Much like eBay FB system.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ajays 15y ago
It's interesting that he quoted the positive parts from EJ's post; but not the negative parts: My next call was to airbnb.com - I tried their "urgent" line, their email address, their general customer support line. I heard nothing - no response whatsoever - until the following day, 14 sleepless hours later, and only after a desperate call to an airbnb.com freelancer I happen to know helped my case get some attention.
ajays 15y ago
Since this is the third story on this topic on the FP today, I figured a wisecrack is in order. EJ's blog has the tagline: I leap, the net appears. Every time. Apparently not this time...
kevinpet 15y ago
AirBNB has a huge asymmetric trust problem. The hosts have real physical addresses and need to be able to take a payment. Hosts can easily be held accountable. The guests on the other hand could be anyone. The company's attitude seems to be that allowing the host to interview the guest over email is sufficient to vet the guest. That's absurd. I don't have any special ability to identify a con artist vs. an honest person, and neither does anyone else. What would be a good solution? Here's a partial solution: require guests to make a partial payment on the credit card they intend to use 30 days before their first booking. This would at least offer some security that the card wasn't stolen. Also of course ban pre-paid cards.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  I was with you until your final paragraph, which seems to me only to address payment problems by making payment and planning more difficult, without actually addressing the asymmetric trust or renter-vetting problems. The renter-vetting problem is a real one. A past history of good experiences at AirBNB would probably be a good mechanism - a new member of the community would then be scrutinized a little more closely. (Maybe they already do this, I don't know - I haven't used them and won't, because I travel with a wife, two kids, and a dog, and there's no freaking way I'd leave somebody in my home without supervision if it was Jesus Christ Himself.)
  - kevinpet 15y ago
    I propose it because it would help to ensure that the credit card wasn't stolen (because the cardholder would spot the charge before the guest arrived). If you can ensure that the card isn't stolen, then AirBNB has a way to track down criminal guests, which makes it less likely criminals would see this as an exploitable system. Yes, it's a pain, hopefully they can come up with something better. But they seem to be ignoring the problem of effectively anonymous guests.
- AshMokhberi 15y ago
  It really gets on my nerves when I see cases like this and the responses that follow. As you have pointed out, you have no special skills to be able to recognise con artists or criminals. As this is the case with most people, how would having further private information on the guest help you to make a different judgement. Unless we start talking criminal background checks, you are no safer than before. If anything it gives a false sense of security, which might make you less likely pursue further avenues of safeguarding. Of course criminal background checks are a completely stupid idea. I'm sure many good natured people would be hesitant to put this level of info in the hands of someone they don't know. The truth is though even criminals can get credit cards, debit cards and any other method of verification you can think of. So that info doesn't really help. Worse still they can use fraudulent information just as easily. What do you do now? You also have to remember those opportunistic types, you know the person who has never really done anything wrong, but for whatever reason at that moment they are compelled to break the law or behave in a manner they normally wouldn't. In a society that is mostly good, we have the police the courts, the law and prisons, to deal with bad people. You can not really on airbnb to provide you with a definitive solution to this problem, if they did then they should be running the country. Nor should you expect them to put systems in place that violate the rights of the majority, or systems that provide a false sense of security. The best they can ever do is provide you with support and advice on preventative measures. Your safety should still be your top concern. You should not be relying on another to provide it for you.
efader 15y ago
This already happens within regular hotel environments people have to be realistic and more sensible when renting out their living areas. Additionally, Airbnb or another company should start to offer, FOR A Fee, a form of insurance to cover situations like this unfortunate scenario.
dreww 15y ago
i guess i feel like this is totally unsurprising, except that a similar incident hadn't been publicized already. i felt exactly the same way about Getaround, which is AirBnB for your car - hobos will definitely rent my car and defecate and copulate in it.
walkon 15y ago
Generally, people are not "fundamentally good". Generally, most people are only good when they believe the reward for being so is >= the required effort or discomfort (rewards aren't always monetary and could be as simple as feeling good about yourself for helping the crippled-orphaned-widow-beggar across the street). An example of this is airbnb's own policy of not disclosing renter contact information. Despite what they say, airbnb believes that people are not fundamentally good as their concern of users circumventing their payment system is greater than their concern for the safety of said users (at least to the extent that stories such as this don't hurt their business more than payment bypassing would). If airbnb believed what they espouse, they'd quit trying to outsource their trust in humanity to their customers whom they aren't liable for and instead actually trust that people in general won't sidestep the payment process.
- walkon 15y ago
  When down voting, please explain (seriously).
bambax 15y ago
> ...a case study demonstrating that people are fundamentally good > Private messaging that lets users learn about each other prior to booking, without revealing private information The reason why Airbnb doesn't let people "reveal private information" prior to booking / paying is so they won't circumvent their system and exchange money without paying Airbnb's fees. So in fact Airbnb isn't so trusting of people's "fundamental" goodness and honesty; the matter of fact is that Airbnb assumes every single one of its users is a potential cheater. Instead of the marketspeak / ass-protecting / legalese response we've witnessed so far from Airbnb about this incident, an interesting experiment would be to lift this restriction and let people exchange personal information from the very beginning: how many would actually try to game the system?
georgieporgie 15y ago
Credit checks would probably weed out dysfunctional meth-heads. Also, college students and foreigners, but basic background/reference checks might address that. That's not easy or cheap, but security never is.
andjones 15y ago
First, I do not believe this is the place to make a stand about our trust in humanity. I believe that is best left to philosopher who has all of human discourse to use. My argument rests on the fact that Airbnb is moving closer to the average. Airbnb is moving closer to the average in the sense that they are attracting more people. After several million bookings, the general booking population will look more like the average in terms of disabilities, crime, unemployment, and many other imaginable statistics. Airbnb may not be quite there, but they are certainly growing closer. The question becomes, how to improve trust as Airbnb moves closer to the average? One such way is to implement trust systems. One such way is their existing feedback systems for people who use Airbnb. Hosts and renters alike can rate each other across several factors. Over time, one can develop a reputation that is accepted as a "I will do no evil". Heck, Airbnb could even reward these people with lower booking rates / larger cut as host. Trust systems are fine for those who have earned trust within the system. How does one bootstrap trust in an increasing paranoid system? There is a cost associated with this in the sense of gaining references or examining the social network of a first time renter. After such examination the responsibility relies upon some host to have an increasingly long conversation with a first time renter. This can be done before or after booking. However at the end of the conversation, one ultimately relies on their own judgement, which means the conversation can be gamed. In a future, Airbnb could work with outside systems. Airbnb could work with criminal databases, social information, along with associated other signals. All these approaches hint at a big brother approach where Airbnb is the ultimate judge and jury on who can host and/or rent. I don't see Airbnb being very popular in this approach. In the end, I think Airbnb has the responsibility to make things right in this situation. In the future I think they have the responsibility to make things right while their business model relies on the trust of their customers. Increase awareness and increase their own detection measures to the extent that they do not become big brother. Ultimately, I think things like this will continue to happen. However, the success (or failure) of the Airbnb billion+ business will depend on their response to such future events. Continue to make the host (the supply) happy and Airbnb will do well.
pallinder 15y ago
I once rented out my apartment privately and it turned out to be a major mistake. I had just come home from surfing the Caribbeans and was sitting on a train going home from the airport when I got a job offer that would entail me moving halfway across the world. I took the job and was basically on a plane in a week or two. I decided to save time by renting my apartment out fully furnished. My mom met some dude she thought looked OK and we rented it out to this guy. Turns out this was one shady guy. First month comes around, no rent. I call the guy and he comes up with an excuse, not wanting to really deal with this at the time I bought the excuse and was expecting two rents the next month. Next month comes along and no rent again so I get my friend to go into the apartment and he opens the door only to find basically everything I owned stolen. After calming down I found the guy on facebook and then reported him to the police, they couldnt do much seing as the guys excuse was that he had left the apartment and dropped the key into the mailbox so someone else must have fished it up and opened the door and stole everything. tl;dr I rented out my apartment and got everything I own stolen and the police didnt manage to do anything. What did I learn from this? ALWAYS get a deposit. 2-3 months rent up front. Have insurance, have friends that are able to go check up on the place from time to time. And dont leave anything valuable in the apt when renting it out. And this is why I will never ever use a service such as Airbnb, no control.
farrel 15y ago
If you're going to rent out a fully furnished apartment full of valuables to strangers who you can't vet beforehand the insurance costs will be significant. I have a feeling AirBnB don't offer insurance because the premiums required (and the cost passed on to hosts) would make the entire thing unprofitable. Hotels have insurance but it is probably much much lower than what AirBnB could provide to hosts because hotels already have a) security infrastructure in place b) your credit card details and c) your agreement to be held liable for damages.
thom 15y ago
Bruce Shneier often talks about terrorist tactics only being worrying when they are reliable enough to build a plot around - if a someone gets through security checks by random chance, it's sad, but not a fundamental flaw in the system because nobody could plan to exploit the same situation in the future. My worry about this case is that this does seem an entirely reliable and repeatable method of nastiness. I'm happy to assume that any given random person is fundamentally good, but now that it's been demonstrated that identity fraud + Airbnb = swag, fundamentally bad people will be actively planning ways to exploit it. I'm glad someone's in custody, but I don't see anything announced in this post that is going to dissuade wrongdoers from looking at Airbnb as a massive opportunity.
plusbryan 15y ago
I love what AirBnB is doing - and I know they'll pull through this. But there's one policy of theirs that just needs to change: Stop penalizing hosts for declining reservations My wife and I used AirBnB to rent out our place in San Francisco very early on in the life of AirBnB. At one point we'd booked about 60 reservations and were making a killing. It was simply wonderful having the freedom of place that AirBnB afforded us. Trip to Hawaii for the weekend? Our rental earnings for just the weekend easily paid off the flight. We stopped using AirBnB (and renting out our place in general) for a variety of reasons, but the primary reason was safety. We were finding that 9 of 10 reservation requests were from people without AirBnB ratings nor profiles, but the moment you decline a reservation, for any reason (even if you know the person isn't legit), your search ranking drops considerably. The way AirBnB determines your search ranking for a particular area is directly related to how many successful bookings you've had over a trailing 60 days. This is why the top 50 places in SF right now on AirBnB are "full time" or professionally-managed rentals, and not normal people just renting on the weekends. At one point we were renting out our place consistently almost every weekend, and because airbnb's search interface is so poor, making it into the top 20 for an area resulted in a twentyfold increase in reservations. The problem then becomes, as a host - do I decline reservations from people I know nothing about and take a rating hit that may prevent me from renting again, or, do I accept the reservation and "trust in humankind" that everything will be ok? We obviously took the latter road, and for the most part had great interactions with the people we met. However, after a couple of "close calls" - an elderly couple who almost burned our place down and an obviously high-functioning crazy person, we decided that it wasn't worth the risk anymore. I really want AirBnB to work - and I understand why they maintain this policy of penalizing you for not being generally available, but in light of the recent incident, I hope they rethink it and help promote "real" hosts who don't do this as a business.

162 points by ssclafani 15y ago

> Creating a dedicated Trust & Safety department. This sure is where things start to get tricky in managing the organizational growth of a company. Something like this happens and the reaction is to create a new department. That's understandable and demonstrates commitment to tackling the issue at hand. But then another adverse event (inevitably) happens and people will complain complain that the "Trust & Safety" department was isolated from the rest of the company and that those topics now have to get mainstreamed (or insert other buzzword) across the whole company. Just one of the many challenges that comes with great success.

DanielRibeiro 15y ago

From these efforts, I get the impression that AirBnB really epitomizes the Be Good argument (where Don't be Evil isn't enough)[1] [1] http://paulgraham.com/good.html http://paulgraham.com/good.html

dredmorbius 15y ago
That's generous of you, at this stage. I'd say they got off to a rocky start on this (both in the initial response to EJ, and the subsequent response to the public disclosure of the incident). AirBnB could have tried to get in front of the story, but didn't. I can chalk a lot of that up to a green team running scared, though trying to do the right thing. I'm reserving final judgment on this until more is known.
MisterMerkin 15y ago
You've got to be kidding me. Are you not aware of AirBnB's history and how they built their userbase?
- pg 15y ago
  I replied to the other comment you made saying the same thing elsewhere on this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2815183 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2815183
  - MisterMerkin 15y ago
    Thanks.
alnayyir 15y ago
No.

latch 15y ago

There continues to be a major point of conflict between EJ's concerns and AirBnB's position. In fact, the point of conflict is actually within AirBnB's safety policies itself: 1 - Private messaging that lets users learn about each other prior to booking, without revealing private information 2 - Reservation system that allows hosts to accept or decline guests, giving them complete control over who books their space I'm sorry, but that just isn't consistent - which is, I believe, a major point EJ is trying to get across. How can you have "complete control over who books [your] space" while not "revealing private information." It's so blatantly inconsistent that it just comes out sounding like marketing drivel. The fundamental issue, as I see it, is that as long as private information is withheld, you not only have very limited control, it also simply isn't safe. What are AirBnB's reasons for blocking the exchange of private information? Is it their form for DRM? Or is there really a good reason that isn't about protecting AirBnB's revenue stream?

trjordan 15y ago
Before booking, AirBnB does not allow you swap personal information, primarily so you can't go outside their system to make your arrangements. There are both financial and community-building reasons for this. Once the payment has been made (well before the guest arrives), the host gets access to all of the private information of the guest. I believe they could chose to rescind the offer of hospitality at this point -- they haven't received the money, so if they are uncomfortable with the individual, they can still do something about it. I know this is an emotional issue, but their response was hardly "blantantly inconsistent ... marketing drivel."
- latch 15y ago
  Can you elaborate though on the exact timing of the exchange? EJ's story makes it sound insufficient: "Thus by the time this reservation was confirmed and I was given Dj’s email address and phone number, I was on a plane heading East, and he/she was armed with my welcoming instructions on where to pick up the keys to my apartment." For the rest of it, I'm not saying that the response is inconsistent. I'm saying that keeping information private is inconsistent with safety (which is what EJ's argument was). This is especially true (and concerning) when they say that keeping information private is a safety feature, but it seems everyone thinks its a driven by financial motivation. It's slightly frustrating when someone says "we do this for safety", but the reality is they do it for money and it reduces safety.

jmjerlecki 15y ago

This post is in the right direction and I applaud Brian for stepping up, but this has taken too long for this to happen. If you note in EJ's post, she states that she would not be compensated for any damages and she was on the hook. Airbnb didn't step up to the plate until it was posted on Techcrunch. This has been simmering since June and they really could have gotten ahead of this and handled this entirely different. Imagine had they come out in June and fessed up and said this is how we are going to handle it. EJ we are taking care of everything, we are instituting new policies, looking into insurance and we will have a dedicated 24 hour hotline for customer support. They would have set the precedent for how to handle these situations. Instead they did like everyone else and only dealt with it once it became a much larger issue. /sidenote if I was Brian I would by no means be quoting EJ's blog post as proof to saying they handled this correctly. Because they didn't.

SoftwareMaven 15y ago
They were hoping nobody would notice. I'm sure they've been working on changes as a result of this since June and have had a response plan in place as well, but in their ideal world, this would have never made it to the top of HN and other sites, and TechCrunch would have never gotten involved. Why point people towards something that will always give you a black eye when they could say "see the new features we have to keep you safe" instead? FWIW, similar to PayPal paying well north of $100M to really learn how to do fraud prevention, AirBnB should consider the cost of making things right for her as part of the cost of learning how to rent safely. Not doing so is a very short-term decision that reduces trust in their ecosystem and trust is fundamental to their success.
mlinsey 15y ago
this has taken too long for this to happen. If you note in EJ's post, she states that she would not be compensated for any damages and she was on the hook. Airbnb didn't step up to the plate until it was posted on Techcrunch. Is this really the case? EJ's post from June says this in the fifth paragraph: "They have offered to help me recover emotionally and financially". I cannot find anything in her original post that contradicts that. Can you point me to a paragraph number and sentence where you are getting the info that she originally would not be compensated? The only source for the idea that EJ would not be compensated seems to be the original TC article from today. That was sourced from a company spokesperson who was citing policy, and was contradicted by Chesky's post here. Given the original blog post, it seems a lot more probable that this is a detail that TC (and Airbnb's spokesperson) got wrong, not that Airbnb changed their mind.

axiom 15y ago

Can we agree that the host here is at least partially responsible for what happened? First, let me say that what happened was horrible, and the person who did the damage should go to jail for a long long time. AirBnB should cover the cost of all damages as a gesture of goodwill. It's really a shame that this kind of stuff can happen, but the reality (that I'd hope most people understand) is that not 100% of the population is good and decent (maybe it's 99%, maybe it's 98%, but it's certainly not 100%) Given that every mature adult is aware of this, the way the host acted was pretty irresponsible and was kind of inviting disaster. She literally left a key for a total stranger to her home, without doing ANY due-diligence. Someone basically sent her an email, and she said "okey-dokey, here's the keys, have fun." What are the odds that if you do that 50 or 100 times that something like this doesn't happen? Also, how many people would be careless enough to do that? Seriously, it's pretty tragic what happened and I really feel for the host, but it rubs me the wrong way that AirBnB is getting this massive amount of bad press when in fairness they just posted a listing and handled the transaction. Could they have more security measures in place? sure, but the way the host acted, I'm really not convinced anything would have made a difference here. If you give keys to your place to a random stranger without so much as meeting them or getting basic information about them, then you're going to get burned.

georgemcbay 15y ago
"She literally left a key for a total stranger to her home, without doing ANY due-diligence. Someone basically sent her an email, and she said "okey-dokey, here's the keys, have fun."" I don't use Airbnb from either side, but isn't the big problem here that you can't do due dilligence? As I understand it (and again, as a non-user maybe I am wrong), Airbnb pretty much blocks you from knowing too much about your temporary renter as a measure to avoid you using them as a match up service and then doing the deal directly to avoid paying them their fee.
- alanfalcon 15y ago
  And that's a good reason to avoid Airbnb, not a good reason to give a stranger your keys.
- 15y ago

jsherry 15y ago

Here's what you see when you search the term "insurance" on airbnb.com: http://www.airbnb.com/help/search?q=insurance http://www.airbnb.com/help/search?q=insurance Something like this would be more reassuring: http://support.getaround.com/kb/insurance-infractions/how-does-insurance-work-when-i-use-getaround http://support.getaround.com/kb/insurance-infractions/how-do...

mattbee 15y ago
The article says they are working to offer an "insurance option" to hosts. So what, if it happens again to a host who hasn't taken this option, they're screwed? What would have been more reassuring is saying "airbnb will of course fully indemnify hosts against guests damaging their property" - as they've had to do in this recent case. He seems to say that airbnb are working in the opposite direction in future though.

mcantelon 15y ago

None of this sounds like it addresses the underlying problem: you're relying on them to vet the guest yet you're the one with the most to lose if they get it wrong.

hullo 15y ago
Well, yes and no. For the sake of argument, let's accept that AirBnb is worth $1.3 billion dollars. I can only imagine that a large portion of that valuation is based on the potential upside that would come with becoming a consumer success and disrupting the hotel industry etc etc etc. What portion of that valuation will disappear if the perception that AirBnb "isn't safe" takes hold? To make the math easier, let's guess 10% (although it's potentially 100%). 1.3 billion / 10 is 130 million dollars, which is probably much more than the value of the stuff in your house. All of which is a long way of saying that AirBnb is actually heavily incentivized to get this right.

commanda 15y ago

Unfortunately, no matter what safety mechanisms Airbnb puts in place, messes like this are still going to happen. Even if there were a reliable rating or karma system, and you could exchange messages with a potential renter before accepting them, you will still have the "Ebay problem" - where a malicious party gains access to a trusted user's account and uses it to fool people into renting to them.

physcab 15y ago

I want to believe that people are fundamentally good as well and there is definitely evidence that supports that. But this incident has left a bad taste in my mouth, and their response hasn't made me feel any better. It's not like Ebay where if you have a bad experience, your loss is stemmed to the material good you have given away. On AirBnb, the potential harm in the worst case for both a guest and a host are massive -- total material loss or even rape or death. I'm sure many people find value using their service, but after today, the risk is so clearly present that I don't think you can pay me to use it.

AndyJPartridge 15y ago
One faces the posibility of those horrible loses each day, but obviously you are increasing your risk with AirBnB. But a nutter having your key is just a minor detail if entry is desired; and with AirBnB at least you get a cash reward for your risk.
- go37pi 15y ago
  You're right about the financial expected value, but I think you might be disregarding the trust aspect of the transaction, which I think was why Airbnb was so successful. Buying into the brand reinforces a particularly optimistic world view that people who are likely to use Airbnb enjoy. Plus, when you are giving your key to another person, the risk is not just monetary, but the additional emotional risk of just being violated. I think it was very telling that EJ was particularly betrayed by the lies in the ongoing email updates and not just the monetary loss.
  - jamesteow 15y ago
    Exactly. People (including myself who used the service) felt that it was more legit than Craigslist when in fact, they have the same financial protection.
    - AndyJPartridge 15y ago
      With respect, your misconception on safety levels are not a fault of AirBnB. It's our trusting nature. I've read lots of the discussions about this today, and I think I'm the first to post this: http://www.airbnb.com/home/safety http://www.airbnb.com/home/safety It is no better or worse than Craigslist, as humans are involved. Some humans always screw things up for the rest of us.

spolsky 15y ago

I can't stop thinking that this was a top-secret hit job by some shady character working for the hotel industry looking to derail AirBnB's next fund-raising round. Heck, if Nixon could do it, why couldn't The American Hotel & Lodging Association? So my question to you is: am I quite paranoid or merely rather paranoid?

te_platt 15y ago
Past that - maybe sys admin paranoid.
hboon 15y ago
I don't think you are even paranoid by thinking about this. It's certainly possible. Not only to derail fund-raising, it's also a direct PR hit which can cause slowdowns in expansion and feature development.
learc83 15y ago
It does sound just too ridiculous. I mean it's one thing to find the safe and steal credit cards, but I find it more than a little odd that he burned a spare set of sheets in the fireplace.
- mayoff 15y ago
  The sheets could have simply been stolen.
- Mz 15y ago
  Someone elsewhere (in another related discussion on HN) suggested the place was probably used as a meth lab. They could have been destroying evidence or some such.
almightygod 15y ago
I think if the broader public knew about this it could damage AirBNB but at this point I'm guessing 90% of AirBNB customer base doesn't follow TC or HN and therefore will not be aware of the substantiated risk to their possessions. Maybe after the 10th or 11th serious robbery/rape/murder then This American Life will make an interesting show about it.

hdeo 15y ago

I am sure Airbnb has / is thinking about this already. Still the best solution is transparency and badging. Much like eBay FB system.

deleted 15y ago

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ajays 15y ago

It's interesting that he quoted the positive parts from EJ's post; but not the negative parts: My next call was to airbnb.com - I tried their "urgent" line, their email address, their general customer support line. I heard nothing - no response whatsoever - until the following day, 14 sleepless hours later, and only after a desperate call to an airbnb.com freelancer I happen to know helped my case get some attention.

ajays 15y ago

Since this is the third story on this topic on the FP today, I figured a wisecrack is in order. EJ's blog has the tagline: I leap, the net appears. Every time. Apparently not this time...

kevinpet 15y ago

AirBNB has a huge asymmetric trust problem. The hosts have real physical addresses and need to be able to take a payment. Hosts can easily be held accountable. The guests on the other hand could be anyone. The company's attitude seems to be that allowing the host to interview the guest over email is sufficient to vet the guest. That's absurd. I don't have any special ability to identify a con artist vs. an honest person, and neither does anyone else. What would be a good solution? Here's a partial solution: require guests to make a partial payment on the credit card they intend to use 30 days before their first booking. This would at least offer some security that the card wasn't stolen. Also of course ban pre-paid cards.

Vivtek 15y ago
I was with you until your final paragraph, which seems to me only to address payment problems by making payment and planning more difficult, without actually addressing the asymmetric trust or renter-vetting problems. The renter-vetting problem is a real one. A past history of good experiences at AirBNB would probably be a good mechanism - a new member of the community would then be scrutinized a little more closely. (Maybe they already do this, I don't know - I haven't used them and won't, because I travel with a wife, two kids, and a dog, and there's no freaking way I'd leave somebody in my home without supervision if it was Jesus Christ Himself.)
- kevinpet 15y ago
  I propose it because it would help to ensure that the credit card wasn't stolen (because the cardholder would spot the charge before the guest arrived). If you can ensure that the card isn't stolen, then AirBNB has a way to track down criminal guests, which makes it less likely criminals would see this as an exploitable system. Yes, it's a pain, hopefully they can come up with something better. But they seem to be ignoring the problem of effectively anonymous guests.
AshMokhberi 15y ago
It really gets on my nerves when I see cases like this and the responses that follow. As you have pointed out, you have no special skills to be able to recognise con artists or criminals. As this is the case with most people, how would having further private information on the guest help you to make a different judgement. Unless we start talking criminal background checks, you are no safer than before. If anything it gives a false sense of security, which might make you less likely pursue further avenues of safeguarding. Of course criminal background checks are a completely stupid idea. I'm sure many good natured people would be hesitant to put this level of info in the hands of someone they don't know. The truth is though even criminals can get credit cards, debit cards and any other method of verification you can think of. So that info doesn't really help. Worse still they can use fraudulent information just as easily. What do you do now? You also have to remember those opportunistic types, you know the person who has never really done anything wrong, but for whatever reason at that moment they are compelled to break the law or behave in a manner they normally wouldn't. In a society that is mostly good, we have the police the courts, the law and prisons, to deal with bad people. You can not really on airbnb to provide you with a definitive solution to this problem, if they did then they should be running the country. Nor should you expect them to put systems in place that violate the rights of the majority, or systems that provide a false sense of security. The best they can ever do is provide you with support and advice on preventative measures. Your safety should still be your top concern. You should not be relying on another to provide it for you.

efader 15y ago

This already happens within regular hotel environments people have to be realistic and more sensible when renting out their living areas. Additionally, Airbnb or another company should start to offer, FOR A Fee, a form of insurance to cover situations like this unfortunate scenario.

dreww 15y ago

i guess i feel like this is totally unsurprising, except that a similar incident hadn't been publicized already. i felt exactly the same way about Getaround, which is AirBnB for your car - hobos will definitely rent my car and defecate and copulate in it.

walkon 15y ago

Generally, people are not "fundamentally good". Generally, most people are only good when they believe the reward for being so is >= the required effort or discomfort (rewards aren't always monetary and could be as simple as feeling good about yourself for helping the crippled-orphaned-widow-beggar across the street). An example of this is airbnb's own policy of not disclosing renter contact information. Despite what they say, airbnb believes that people are not fundamentally good as their concern of users circumventing their payment system is greater than their concern for the safety of said users (at least to the extent that stories such as this don't hurt their business more than payment bypassing would). If airbnb believed what they espouse, they'd quit trying to outsource their trust in humanity to their customers whom they aren't liable for and instead actually trust that people in general won't sidestep the payment process.

walkon 15y ago
When down voting, please explain (seriously).

bambax 15y ago

> ...a case study demonstrating that people are fundamentally good > Private messaging that lets users learn about each other prior to booking, without revealing private information The reason why Airbnb doesn't let people "reveal private information" prior to booking / paying is so they won't circumvent their system and exchange money without paying Airbnb's fees. So in fact Airbnb isn't so trusting of people's "fundamental" goodness and honesty; the matter of fact is that Airbnb assumes every single one of its users is a potential cheater. Instead of the marketspeak / ass-protecting / legalese response we've witnessed so far from Airbnb about this incident, an interesting experiment would be to lift this restriction and let people exchange personal information from the very beginning: how many would actually try to game the system?

georgieporgie 15y ago

Credit checks would probably weed out dysfunctional meth-heads. Also, college students and foreigners, but basic background/reference checks might address that. That's not easy or cheap, but security never is.

andjones 15y ago

First, I do not believe this is the place to make a stand about our trust in humanity. I believe that is best left to philosopher who has all of human discourse to use. My argument rests on the fact that Airbnb is moving closer to the average. Airbnb is moving closer to the average in the sense that they are attracting more people. After several million bookings, the general booking population will look more like the average in terms of disabilities, crime, unemployment, and many other imaginable statistics. Airbnb may not be quite there, but they are certainly growing closer. The question becomes, how to improve trust as Airbnb moves closer to the average? One such way is to implement trust systems. One such way is their existing feedback systems for people who use Airbnb. Hosts and renters alike can rate each other across several factors. Over time, one can develop a reputation that is accepted as a "I will do no evil". Heck, Airbnb could even reward these people with lower booking rates / larger cut as host. Trust systems are fine for those who have earned trust within the system. How does one bootstrap trust in an increasing paranoid system? There is a cost associated with this in the sense of gaining references or examining the social network of a first time renter. After such examination the responsibility relies upon some host to have an increasingly long conversation with a first time renter. This can be done before or after booking. However at the end of the conversation, one ultimately relies on their own judgement, which means the conversation can be gamed. In a future, Airbnb could work with outside systems. Airbnb could work with criminal databases, social information, along with associated other signals. All these approaches hint at a big brother approach where Airbnb is the ultimate judge and jury on who can host and/or rent. I don't see Airbnb being very popular in this approach. In the end, I think Airbnb has the responsibility to make things right in this situation. In the future I think they have the responsibility to make things right while their business model relies on the trust of their customers. Increase awareness and increase their own detection measures to the extent that they do not become big brother. Ultimately, I think things like this will continue to happen. However, the success (or failure) of the Airbnb billion+ business will depend on their response to such future events. Continue to make the host (the supply) happy and Airbnb will do well.

pallinder 15y ago

I once rented out my apartment privately and it turned out to be a major mistake. I had just come home from surfing the Caribbeans and was sitting on a train going home from the airport when I got a job offer that would entail me moving halfway across the world. I took the job and was basically on a plane in a week or two. I decided to save time by renting my apartment out fully furnished. My mom met some dude she thought looked OK and we rented it out to this guy. Turns out this was one shady guy. First month comes around, no rent. I call the guy and he comes up with an excuse, not wanting to really deal with this at the time I bought the excuse and was expecting two rents the next month. Next month comes along and no rent again so I get my friend to go into the apartment and he opens the door only to find basically everything I owned stolen. After calming down I found the guy on facebook and then reported him to the police, they couldnt do much seing as the guys excuse was that he had left the apartment and dropped the key into the mailbox so someone else must have fished it up and opened the door and stole everything. tl;dr I rented out my apartment and got everything I own stolen and the police didnt manage to do anything. What did I learn from this? ALWAYS get a deposit. 2-3 months rent up front. Have insurance, have friends that are able to go check up on the place from time to time. And dont leave anything valuable in the apt when renting it out. And this is why I will never ever use a service such as Airbnb, no control.

farrel 15y ago

If you're going to rent out a fully furnished apartment full of valuables to strangers who you can't vet beforehand the insurance costs will be significant. I have a feeling AirBnB don't offer insurance because the premiums required (and the cost passed on to hosts) would make the entire thing unprofitable. Hotels have insurance but it is probably much much lower than what AirBnB could provide to hosts because hotels already have a) security infrastructure in place b) your credit card details and c) your agreement to be held liable for damages.

thom 15y ago

Bruce Shneier often talks about terrorist tactics only being worrying when they are reliable enough to build a plot around - if a someone gets through security checks by random chance, it's sad, but not a fundamental flaw in the system because nobody could plan to exploit the same situation in the future. My worry about this case is that this does seem an entirely reliable and repeatable method of nastiness. I'm happy to assume that any given random person is fundamentally good, but now that it's been demonstrated that identity fraud + Airbnb = swag, fundamentally bad people will be actively planning ways to exploit it. I'm glad someone's in custody, but I don't see anything announced in this post that is going to dissuade wrongdoers from looking at Airbnb as a massive opportunity.

plusbryan 15y ago

I love what AirBnB is doing - and I know they'll pull through this. But there's one policy of theirs that just needs to change: Stop penalizing hosts for declining reservations My wife and I used AirBnB to rent out our place in San Francisco very early on in the life of AirBnB. At one point we'd booked about 60 reservations and were making a killing. It was simply wonderful having the freedom of place that AirBnB afforded us. Trip to Hawaii for the weekend? Our rental earnings for just the weekend easily paid off the flight. We stopped using AirBnB (and renting out our place in general) for a variety of reasons, but the primary reason was safety. We were finding that 9 of 10 reservation requests were from people without AirBnB ratings nor profiles, but the moment you decline a reservation, for any reason (even if you know the person isn't legit), your search ranking drops considerably. The way AirBnB determines your search ranking for a particular area is directly related to how many successful bookings you've had over a trailing 60 days. This is why the top 50 places in SF right now on AirBnB are "full time" or professionally-managed rentals, and not normal people just renting on the weekends. At one point we were renting out our place consistently almost every weekend, and because airbnb's search interface is so poor, making it into the top 20 for an area resulted in a twentyfold increase in reservations. The problem then becomes, as a host - do I decline reservations from people I know nothing about and take a rating hit that may prevent me from renting again, or, do I accept the reservation and "trust in humankind" that everything will be ok? We obviously took the latter road, and for the most part had great interactions with the people we met. However, after a couple of "close calls" - an elderly couple who almost burned our place down and an obviously high-functioning crazy person, we decided that it wasn't worth the risk anymore. I really want AirBnB to work - and I understand why they maintain this policy of penalizing you for not being generally available, but in light of the recent incident, I hope they rethink it and help promote "real" hosts who don't do this as a business.