4 ms·

Germany arrests British diplomat suspected of spying for Russia

59 points by baybal2 5y ago

baybal2 5y ago
I want to note, the headline keeps changing: From "Germany arrests British citizen on suspicion of espionage" to "British diplomat suspected of spying for Russia" to "British embassy worker" to just "British national" https://www.google.com/search?q="Germany+arrests+British+diplomat+suspected+of+spying+for+Russia" https://www.google.com/search?q="Germany+arrests+British+dip... Currently the full headline is "Briton suspected of spying for Russia arrested in Germany" I guess the damage control is in full swing on the British side
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > I guess the damage control is in full swing on the British side Maybe they're changing the title as they learn more of the situation? Turned out he wasn't a diplomat (which is also what the German media say), so I guess they corrected the title. And why would you need damage control for an investigation you were involved in yourself? Doesn't make sense as a comment.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > Maybe they're changing the title as they learn more of the situation? A possibility, but we shouldn't forget that BBC is an official government broadcaster which is sometimes gets very visibly influenced by the British state despite the claim of editorial independence.
    - simonh 5y ago
      It depends what you mean by "official broadcaster". They do not officially speak for or represent the British Government in any way. The BBC is of course mainly made up of British citizens who generally have the interests of the UK in mind, but dynamically editorialising headlines at the behest of the government isn't something we've ever seen happen. It's hard to imagine how that could be done without a lot of people at the BBC knowing about it and getting upset.
    - CalChris 5y ago
      No, BBC is not official. The C stands for corporation. It is a national broadcaster like PBS.
- OJFord 5y ago
  > I guess the damage control is in full swing on the British side I don't think that's warranted? The article reports it as a 'joint operation', you can't really deny or distance yourself much from that. This is the second time today I've seen this suggestion on HN that the UK (/HMG) is somehow 'cosy' with Russia. It seems really off to me? At least since Salisbury, sentiment has been firmly in the other direction in both parliament and popular opinion, afaict.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > This is the second time today I've seen this sentiment on HN that the UK (/HMG) is somehow 'cosy' with Russia. It seems really off to me? The whole of EU sans the former Eastern Bloc member countries keep "playing games" with rogue states, and repressive regimes. I think, it now goes almost automatic for them to go on the defensive now, when anything like this gets uncovered.
    - iechoz6H 5y ago
      The UK is no longer in the EU.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      I think you missed a little thing called 'Brexit'.
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
    The language of the article also suggests that he is suspected of spying on British sensitive data, not German sensitive data, but it's not too clear. I assume he's not a diplomat, as, as I understand it, diplomatic immunity exists exactly so that diplomats cannot be charged with such allegations, but it is sometimes a bit murky as to what personnel of embassies exactly it extends.
    - akiselev 5y ago
      Diplomatic immunity exists for the benefit of other governments, not the individuals. If there’s any sort of coordination, the guest nation will waive their representatives’ immunity right before official charges are filed.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  This is pretty common with developing stories. As more facts surface the story can be updated, or even withdrawn.
ashtonkem 5y ago
That seems awkward. Shouldn’t the British diplomat be spying for Britain?
- gruez 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    The joke is that a diplomat spying on their host country on behalf of their parent country is expected behavior; it’s only awkward if you get caught. There are polite ways of dealing with that, usually by declaring them persona non grata and asking them to leave. Spying on your host country on behalf of someone else though, that gets you arrested.
    - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
      I find it so strange to punish the diplomat in that case rather than the the parent country, — though I assume it will sour relationships. I doubt the diplomat had much of a say in it. Are spies in general treated as prisoners of war, I wonder, or are they simply treated as criminals and punished to the fullest extent for breaking the host country's laws.
      - eru 5y ago
        > I find it so strange to punish the diplomat in that case rather than the the parent country, — though I assume it will sour relationships. It might have a slight negative impact on relations, but the overall relation between the two countries is much bigger, so relatively it makes less of an impact. In any case, by punishing the individual, they make it harder for the spying country to hire in the future. Especially to hire people with lots of other options. > Are spies in general treated as prisoners of war, I wonder, or are they simply treated as criminals and punished to the fullest extent for breaking the host country's laws. Good question. Google has some hits, eg https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule107_sectionb https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul... In general, it probably depends on lots of factors.
sandworm101 5y ago
Not a diplomat. This was a contractor, a locally hired brit rather than a civil servant brought from the uk. He may be a spy, but he doesnt have dimplomatic immunity. These distinctions matter. It looks like he worked as a security guard and may have shared security-related material. I doubt he had wide access to anything properly classified/dangerous. At 57, he was probably looking at retirement and wanted money. (Russia doesnt pay much;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Delisle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Delisle This guy, who had access to very classified material, reputably was paid about 3000/month.
- baybal2 5y ago
  I guess if we now know for sure that he was not even close to diplomatic affairs, it warrants a headline update.
  - not2b 5y ago
    The article says "the man is not thought to have diplomatic immunity". That would mean "not a diplomat". So yes, please fix the headline.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      Can we have an admin assist with that?
rsyring 5y ago
Honest question, how/why is this news article making it to the top of Hacker news? Is this community really that interested? Or is there something nefarious going on with bots and upvotes due to Russia being involved? I wouldn't have ever thought to suggest something like that, but read here recently on a different thread that Russia could be influencing HN through propaganda accounts. I was surprised by that, if true, how would we know? Is an article like this making it to #2 evidence?
- LegitShady 5y ago
  I think its safer to assume that all major and some minor social media sites are manipulated by more than one group/agency/etc.
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  Doubt there is manipulation as you suggest. Your assumptions of HN demographics are being challenged instead.
  - rsyring 5y ago
    To be clear, I'm not suggesting. I'm actually asking. If it's happening, how would we know? I was surprised when I read the suggestion on the other thread. And it got me thinking, how would we know? How could we protect against it?
    - tastroder 5y ago
      We don't have to protect against a thing that's not happening. https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/28149974 https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/28149974 looks completely normal, the story is just interesting
      - rsyring 5y ago
        I didn't realize something like this existed, thanks for sharing. What's a bot affected post look like?

59 points by baybal2 5y ago

I want to note, the headline keeps changing: From "Germany arrests British citizen on suspicion of espionage" to "British diplomat suspected of spying for Russia" to "British embassy worker" to just "British national" https://www.google.com/search?q="Germany+arrests+British+diplomat+suspected+of+spying+for+Russia" https://www.google.com/search?q="Germany+arrests+British+dip... Currently the full headline is "Briton suspected of spying for Russia arrested in Germany" I guess the damage control is in full swing on the British side

chrisseaton 5y ago
> I guess the damage control is in full swing on the British side Maybe they're changing the title as they learn more of the situation? Turned out he wasn't a diplomat (which is also what the German media say), so I guess they corrected the title. And why would you need damage control for an investigation you were involved in yourself? Doesn't make sense as a comment.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Maybe they're changing the title as they learn more of the situation? A possibility, but we shouldn't forget that BBC is an official government broadcaster which is sometimes gets very visibly influenced by the British state despite the claim of editorial independence.
  - simonh 5y ago
    It depends what you mean by "official broadcaster". They do not officially speak for or represent the British Government in any way. The BBC is of course mainly made up of British citizens who generally have the interests of the UK in mind, but dynamically editorialising headlines at the behest of the government isn't something we've ever seen happen. It's hard to imagine how that could be done without a lot of people at the BBC knowing about it and getting upset.
  - CalChris 5y ago
    No, BBC is not official. The C stands for corporation. It is a national broadcaster like PBS.
OJFord 5y ago
> I guess the damage control is in full swing on the British side I don't think that's warranted? The article reports it as a 'joint operation', you can't really deny or distance yourself much from that. This is the second time today I've seen this suggestion on HN that the UK (/HMG) is somehow 'cosy' with Russia. It seems really off to me? At least since Salisbury, sentiment has been firmly in the other direction in both parliament and popular opinion, afaict.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > This is the second time today I've seen this sentiment on HN that the UK (/HMG) is somehow 'cosy' with Russia. It seems really off to me? The whole of EU sans the former Eastern Bloc member countries keep "playing games" with rogue states, and repressive regimes. I think, it now goes almost automatic for them to go on the defensive now, when anything like this gets uncovered.
  - iechoz6H 5y ago
    The UK is no longer in the EU.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I think you missed a little thing called 'Brexit'.
- Blikkentrekker 5y ago
  The language of the article also suggests that he is suspected of spying on British sensitive data, not German sensitive data, but it's not too clear. I assume he's not a diplomat, as, as I understand it, diplomatic immunity exists exactly so that diplomats cannot be charged with such allegations, but it is sometimes a bit murky as to what personnel of embassies exactly it extends.
  - akiselev 5y ago
    Diplomatic immunity exists for the benefit of other governments, not the individuals. If there’s any sort of coordination, the guest nation will waive their representatives’ immunity right before official charges are filed.
jacquesm 5y ago
This is pretty common with developing stories. As more facts surface the story can be updated, or even withdrawn.

ashtonkem 5y ago

That seems awkward. Shouldn’t the British diplomat be spying for Britain?

gruez 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  The joke is that a diplomat spying on their host country on behalf of their parent country is expected behavior; it’s only awkward if you get caught. There are polite ways of dealing with that, usually by declaring them persona non grata and asking them to leave. Spying on your host country on behalf of someone else though, that gets you arrested.
  - Blikkentrekker 5y ago
    I find it so strange to punish the diplomat in that case rather than the the parent country, — though I assume it will sour relationships. I doubt the diplomat had much of a say in it. Are spies in general treated as prisoners of war, I wonder, or are they simply treated as criminals and punished to the fullest extent for breaking the host country's laws.
    - eru 5y ago
      > I find it so strange to punish the diplomat in that case rather than the the parent country, — though I assume it will sour relationships. It might have a slight negative impact on relations, but the overall relation between the two countries is much bigger, so relatively it makes less of an impact. In any case, by punishing the individual, they make it harder for the spying country to hire in the future. Especially to hire people with lots of other options. > Are spies in general treated as prisoners of war, I wonder, or are they simply treated as criminals and punished to the fullest extent for breaking the host country's laws. Good question. Google has some hits, eg https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul_rule107_sectionb https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_rul... In general, it probably depends on lots of factors.

sandworm101 5y ago

Not a diplomat. This was a contractor, a locally hired brit rather than a civil servant brought from the uk. He may be a spy, but he doesnt have dimplomatic immunity. These distinctions matter. It looks like he worked as a security guard and may have shared security-related material. I doubt he had wide access to anything properly classified/dangerous. At 57, he was probably looking at retirement and wanted money. (Russia doesnt pay much;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Delisle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Delisle This guy, who had access to very classified material, reputably was paid about 3000/month.

baybal2 5y ago
I guess if we now know for sure that he was not even close to diplomatic affairs, it warrants a headline update.
- not2b 5y ago
  The article says "the man is not thought to have diplomatic immunity". That would mean "not a diplomat". So yes, please fix the headline.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Can we have an admin assist with that?

rsyring 5y ago

Honest question, how/why is this news article making it to the top of Hacker news? Is this community really that interested? Or is there something nefarious going on with bots and upvotes due to Russia being involved? I wouldn't have ever thought to suggest something like that, but read here recently on a different thread that Russia could be influencing HN through propaganda accounts. I was surprised by that, if true, how would we know? Is an article like this making it to #2 evidence?

LegitShady 5y ago
I think its safer to assume that all major and some minor social media sites are manipulated by more than one group/agency/etc.
dkdk8283 5y ago
Doubt there is manipulation as you suggest. Your assumptions of HN demographics are being challenged instead.
- rsyring 5y ago
  To be clear, I'm not suggesting. I'm actually asking. If it's happening, how would we know? I was surprised when I read the suggestion on the other thread. And it got me thinking, how would we know? How could we protect against it?
  - tastroder 5y ago
    We don't have to protect against a thing that's not happening. https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/28149974 https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/28149974 looks completely normal, the story is just interesting
    - rsyring 5y ago
      I didn't realize something like this existed, thanks for sharing. What's a bot affected post look like?