4 ms·

Granted I live on the west coast and fires have been very much on my mind in the past few years, but I do wholeheartedly support the most draconian punishments

Granted I live on the west coast and fires have been very much on my mind in the past few years, but I do wholeheartedly support the most draconian punishments for arsonists who start wild fires. It’s going to have to be a part of our climate changed future to deter criminals.

TrainedMonkey 5y ago
Do you also support draconian punishments for people and organizations who blocked controlled burns and other wildfire control measures?
- thghtihadanacct 5y ago
  You trolling? You know that wasnt their intention and was disingenuous of you to play it that way.
  - throwaway_dcnt 5y ago
    Some of this was done out of greed and political corruption so that developers could build more unaffordable housing for the wealthy - I would say the gp has some merit in their comment.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      I have never seen that claim before. My understanding is that lack of wild and controlled burns can be attributed to two factors: 1) Emotion driven environmentalism trumping environmental scientists 2) Political deferral due to the risk of blowback from out of control burns.
      - bishoprook2 5y ago
        I'd add.. 3) The urban public likes purty forests to go vacation in.
      - throwaway_dcnt 5y ago
        The corrupt developers don't like to publicize their corruption. I happen to know this because I know some of the players (and was even offered opportunities to invest in land before the decision to build a new highway was made public).
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I feel like I am missing a few steps. So the claim is that housing developers have been suppressing controlled burns because it drives up housing prices? I feel like I am missing a few steps here
  - CamperBob2 5y ago
    At this point the environmental lobby can hardly claim ignorance.
- ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
  Whataboutism special on aisle 4. EDIT: I also feel like you're (believe it or not) politicizing this as conservatives and libertarians in favor of controlled burns and arson (yes, that is exactly what you sound like), and hippie dippie out of touch leftist urbanites being the real root cause of all this because of their supposed intolerance of controlled burns.
- giardini 5y ago
  Perhaps we could solve two problems at once by directing arsonists to locations of planned controlled burns. Everybody wins: the arsonists get to start fires and the forests are properly culled to the benefit of all. Afterwards everybody could get together, drink a cold beer, tell stories, bitch about how hard it is to be an arsonist and the lousy pay, and argue about who is the best arsonist! Heck, CA needs so many controlled burns that they could create jobs for arsonists, thus preventing them from initiating disasters b/c of their failed "theatre arts" attempts. "Hello, Thompson, Department of Arson. Burn, Baby, Burn! How can I help you?" This would also alleviate other states' problems as most arsonists would move to CA to get a steady job.
trynumber9 5y ago
I think rehabilitation should be prioritized where improvement is possible. Reading about his alleged behavior -- muttering, pulling a knife on a witness who was trying to help him and agitated outbursts -- this seems like some mental issue that could be helped in time.
gruez 5y ago
>It’s going to have to be a part of our climate changed future to deter criminals. How's that strategy working out for deterring murderers and drug dealers?
- yumraj 5y ago
  We don't have data to say that it's not working.
  - coding123 5y ago
    It's still happening... is that data?
    - majormajor 5y ago
      Not really. Rates exist between 0% and 100%. How many deterred murderers do you think need to exist for it to be worth prosecuting and harshly punishing murder? Though even after knowing your answer to that question... I'm not eager to live in your experiment's "murder is fine" group...
- btkramer9 5y ago
  It will probably work as well as it does for murderers. There's not really a demand for murder so there's not continually new people filling their shoes when they get arrested. Drug dealers on the other hand will never go away no matter how many you arrest. There will always be more people willing to buy drugs and a new dealer ready to step up and make a profit.
  - wahern 5y ago
    > Drug dealers on the other hand will never go away no matter how many you arrest. There will always be more people willing to buy drugs and a new dealer ready to step up and make a profit. Singapore and Saudi Arabia might object. Punishments always have some marginal effect; the question is how severe they need to be to achieve the desired effect magnitude, and whether the direct and indirect costs are acceptable.

TrainedMonkey 5y ago

Do you also support draconian punishments for people and organizations who blocked controlled burns and other wildfire control measures?

thghtihadanacct 5y ago
You trolling? You know that wasnt their intention and was disingenuous of you to play it that way.
- throwaway_dcnt 5y ago
  Some of this was done out of greed and political corruption so that developers could build more unaffordable housing for the wealthy - I would say the gp has some merit in their comment.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I have never seen that claim before. My understanding is that lack of wild and controlled burns can be attributed to two factors: 1) Emotion driven environmentalism trumping environmental scientists 2) Political deferral due to the risk of blowback from out of control burns.
    - bishoprook2 5y ago
      I'd add.. 3) The urban public likes purty forests to go vacation in.
    - throwaway_dcnt 5y ago
      The corrupt developers don't like to publicize their corruption. I happen to know this because I know some of the players (and was even offered opportunities to invest in land before the decision to build a new highway was made public).
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        I feel like I am missing a few steps. So the claim is that housing developers have been suppressing controlled burns because it drives up housing prices? I feel like I am missing a few steps here
- CamperBob2 5y ago
  At this point the environmental lobby can hardly claim ignorance.
ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
Whataboutism special on aisle 4. EDIT: I also feel like you're (believe it or not) politicizing this as conservatives and libertarians in favor of controlled burns and arson (yes, that is exactly what you sound like), and hippie dippie out of touch leftist urbanites being the real root cause of all this because of their supposed intolerance of controlled burns.
giardini 5y ago
Perhaps we could solve two problems at once by directing arsonists to locations of planned controlled burns. Everybody wins: the arsonists get to start fires and the forests are properly culled to the benefit of all. Afterwards everybody could get together, drink a cold beer, tell stories, bitch about how hard it is to be an arsonist and the lousy pay, and argue about who is the best arsonist! Heck, CA needs so many controlled burns that they could create jobs for arsonists, thus preventing them from initiating disasters b/c of their failed "theatre arts" attempts. "Hello, Thompson, Department of Arson. Burn, Baby, Burn! How can I help you?" This would also alleviate other states' problems as most arsonists would move to CA to get a steady job.

trynumber9 5y ago

I think rehabilitation should be prioritized where improvement is possible. Reading about his alleged behavior -- muttering, pulling a knife on a witness who was trying to help him and agitated outbursts -- this seems like some mental issue that could be helped in time.

gruez 5y ago

>It’s going to have to be a part of our climate changed future to deter criminals. How's that strategy working out for deterring murderers and drug dealers?

yumraj 5y ago
We don't have data to say that it's not working.
- coding123 5y ago
  It's still happening... is that data?
  - majormajor 5y ago
    Not really. Rates exist between 0% and 100%. How many deterred murderers do you think need to exist for it to be worth prosecuting and harshly punishing murder? Though even after knowing your answer to that question... I'm not eager to live in your experiment's "murder is fine" group...
btkramer9 5y ago
It will probably work as well as it does for murderers. There's not really a demand for murder so there's not continually new people filling their shoes when they get arrested. Drug dealers on the other hand will never go away no matter how many you arrest. There will always be more people willing to buy drugs and a new dealer ready to step up and make a profit.
- wahern 5y ago
  > Drug dealers on the other hand will never go away no matter how many you arrest. There will always be more people willing to buy drugs and a new dealer ready to step up and make a profit. Singapore and Saudi Arabia might object. Punishments always have some marginal effect; the question is how severe they need to be to achieve the desired effect magnitude, and whether the direct and indirect costs are acceptable.