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Counterpoint: I wish to install say Facebook messenger, because my friends use it and I can't get them to change to something sensible. With an appstore monopo

Counterpoint: I wish to install say Facebook messenger, because my friends use it and I can't get them to change to something sensible. With an appstore monopoly, Apple can say "you must respect the users privacy, not use these apis and only request location permission through us and if denied you must still have a functional app". If Facebook wants to be on the iPhone at all they will have to play ball. With an alternative app, they can just require that I install their store and accept their terms. I am between a rock and a hard place, and I would like to choose the Orchard in that case.

asddubs 5y ago
I think android is a pretty good case study of this not happening (so far). Most people wouldn't bother downloading other app stores, and making your app much more confusing to find for the default experience is a costly endeavour.
- rahkiin 5y ago
  I am not sure. Google has restrictions on third party stores at this time: huge warnings, settings that require changing, and the store cannot do auto-updates. This will likely not be allowed under this bill. I don’t think we can use Android as a case study.
stale2002 5y ago
> I would like to choose the Orchard in that case. You can. What you won't get to do is force all your friends to agree with you. I am not sure how you have somehow turned a situation, where you being unable to force your friends to use something else, is an infringement on you.
Vespasian 5y ago
Then the way to fix this isn't a benevolent for-profit organisation deciding what is good and right but a data protection law that with teeth. Apple right now can change their stance on any of their rules on a dime (e.g. leadership change).
- dntrkv 5y ago
  Get those laws passed first and then open pandoras box.
  - Drew_ 5y ago
    Opening "pandora's box" will get the laws passed more quickly. In reality though there is no "pandora's box" which is plainly evident on Windows, macOS, Linux and any other self respecting desktop OS.
nonameiguess 5y ago
That doesn't sound like it should be possible. It's fairly trivial to put an application in a sandbox where it can't make certain system calls even if it wants to. If iOS doesn't or worse can't do that, that's a design flaw in the OS. Making them pinky swear to get listed in the official app store isn't real security. What the heck way other than through the OS can you ask for access to hardware? That's the entire point of an OS. Ability to prevent hardware access shouldn't depend on the distribution channel.
Overton-Window 5y ago
> Apple can say "you must respect the users privacy ..." No, they can't. Apple no longer has the moral high ground to lecture others on respecting users privacy.
- Jcowell 5y ago
  What? It was never about morality? It was as simple as Apple having a Business Case and following it through with it for the most part.
mannerheim 5y ago
> Apple can say "you must respect the users privacy Yeah, it would certainly be a shame if a user installed an app that scans their phone for illegal content to report to the authorities.
MrStonedOne 5y ago
counter counter point: Don't you think that is something apple should have thought of before doing what they did to cause the outcry that lead to this? Apple wanted to be the gatekeeper blocking out harmful apps, fine by me. Apple then wanting to use that gatekeeper status to steal money from app developers, block apps that compete with apple internal apps, and enforce moral choices on what kinds of apps you can install on your phone, evil by me. They could have done the former without doing the latter, but they fucked it up, and have to pay the piper.
swiley 5y ago
Even with the monopoly Facebook behaved pathologically, often escaping Apple's sandbox through technical exploits and their analytics/auth "SDK" that almost all iOS apps include. They're social influence extends to Apple, not just your friend group. Apple is also significantly more careless than I would like, there's no source code audit and no instrumentation beyond a network proxy. Just a 15 minute or so inspection of the app UI. If I wanted to run an authoritarian computer regime I would require full source submissions and clear explanations that looked even moderately obscure. Preferably your assigned app reviewer would be present during internal code reviews.
michaelmrose 5y ago
Maybe messenging apps ought to be forced to accept messages from well behaved clients. Perhaps over a reasonable standard like email.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Ye olde Facebook Messenger used Jabber and you could connect to it using any Jabber client.
Terretta 5y ago
I’m pretty unhappy about Adobe’s “app store” on MacOS. I’m unhappier about debris from countless non-app store apps, all with difference license engines, update engines, sites that disappear or change, it’s a mess. Devs, feel free to raise your price and charge me an extra 15% or whatever you need to make up what you think Apple is “stealing” from you. I’m not that price sensitive, just don’t make me think about all your homegrown BS hoops I jump through for your percentage points. As a consumer I want one store, one purchase history, one subscription list, one update engine, total peace of mind. Percentage of consumers that genuinely want to track that stuff separately rounds to zero. I also can’t help but notice that SetApp apps work on my Mac and on iOS without this bill. (I try apps “for free” from SetApp, then I buy them on App Store. Costs me a good deal more, but I’m making sure the dev knows the app store is fine with me thanks.) And SetApp, like Apple Arcade, or Xbox GamePass is even less to track, as you no longer worry per app, it’s the whole library for one price. Speaking of which, I’m also wondering if someone is going to force me, as a consumer who chose a mobile appliance, to screw up my phone, are they planning to screw up my console too? Fair is fair: “Senators Blumenthal, Blackburn, and Klobuchar recognize that independent 3rd party developers are being restricted in anti-competitive ways that impact what users pay for video games and other software,” said Ernesto Falcon, Senior Legislative Counsel at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. “The Open App Markets Act will put a stop to these practices, which will lower the costs for both developers and their customers by setting forth common sense competition policy for the industry.” Or, you know, we can wait it out, let the market decide.
stevenhuang 5y ago
You are conflating side loading apps with security mechanisms provided by the OS.

asddubs 5y ago

I think android is a pretty good case study of this not happening (so far). Most people wouldn't bother downloading other app stores, and making your app much more confusing to find for the default experience is a costly endeavour.

rahkiin 5y ago
I am not sure. Google has restrictions on third party stores at this time: huge warnings, settings that require changing, and the store cannot do auto-updates. This will likely not be allowed under this bill. I don’t think we can use Android as a case study.

stale2002 5y ago

> I would like to choose the Orchard in that case. You can. What you won't get to do is force all your friends to agree with you. I am not sure how you have somehow turned a situation, where you being unable to force your friends to use something else, is an infringement on you.

Vespasian 5y ago

Then the way to fix this isn't a benevolent for-profit organisation deciding what is good and right but a data protection law that with teeth. Apple right now can change their stance on any of their rules on a dime (e.g. leadership change).

dntrkv 5y ago
Get those laws passed first and then open pandoras box.
- Drew_ 5y ago
  Opening "pandora's box" will get the laws passed more quickly. In reality though there is no "pandora's box" which is plainly evident on Windows, macOS, Linux and any other self respecting desktop OS.

nonameiguess 5y ago

That doesn't sound like it should be possible. It's fairly trivial to put an application in a sandbox where it can't make certain system calls even if it wants to. If iOS doesn't or worse can't do that, that's a design flaw in the OS. Making them pinky swear to get listed in the official app store isn't real security. What the heck way other than through the OS can you ask for access to hardware? That's the entire point of an OS. Ability to prevent hardware access shouldn't depend on the distribution channel.

Overton-Window 5y ago

> Apple can say "you must respect the users privacy ..." No, they can't. Apple no longer has the moral high ground to lecture others on respecting users privacy.

Jcowell 5y ago
What? It was never about morality? It was as simple as Apple having a Business Case and following it through with it for the most part.

mannerheim 5y ago

> Apple can say "you must respect the users privacy Yeah, it would certainly be a shame if a user installed an app that scans their phone for illegal content to report to the authorities.

MrStonedOne 5y ago

counter counter point: Don't you think that is something apple should have thought of before doing what they did to cause the outcry that lead to this? Apple wanted to be the gatekeeper blocking out harmful apps, fine by me. Apple then wanting to use that gatekeeper status to steal money from app developers, block apps that compete with apple internal apps, and enforce moral choices on what kinds of apps you can install on your phone, evil by me. They could have done the former without doing the latter, but they fucked it up, and have to pay the piper.

swiley 5y ago

Even with the monopoly Facebook behaved pathologically, often escaping Apple's sandbox through technical exploits and their analytics/auth "SDK" that almost all iOS apps include. They're social influence extends to Apple, not just your friend group. Apple is also significantly more careless than I would like, there's no source code audit and no instrumentation beyond a network proxy. Just a 15 minute or so inspection of the app UI. If I wanted to run an authoritarian computer regime I would require full source submissions and clear explanations that looked even moderately obscure. Preferably your assigned app reviewer would be present during internal code reviews.

michaelmrose 5y ago

Maybe messenging apps ought to be forced to accept messages from well behaved clients. Perhaps over a reasonable standard like email.

heavyset_go 5y ago
Ye olde Facebook Messenger used Jabber and you could connect to it using any Jabber client.

Terretta 5y ago

I’m pretty unhappy about Adobe’s “app store” on MacOS. I’m unhappier about debris from countless non-app store apps, all with difference license engines, update engines, sites that disappear or change, it’s a mess. Devs, feel free to raise your price and charge me an extra 15% or whatever you need to make up what you think Apple is “stealing” from you. I’m not that price sensitive, just don’t make me think about all your homegrown BS hoops I jump through for your percentage points. As a consumer I want one store, one purchase history, one subscription list, one update engine, total peace of mind. Percentage of consumers that genuinely want to track that stuff separately rounds to zero. I also can’t help but notice that SetApp apps work on my Mac and on iOS without this bill. (I try apps “for free” from SetApp, then I buy them on App Store. Costs me a good deal more, but I’m making sure the dev knows the app store is fine with me thanks.) And SetApp, like Apple Arcade, or Xbox GamePass is even less to track, as you no longer worry per app, it’s the whole library for one price. Speaking of which, I’m also wondering if someone is going to force me, as a consumer who chose a mobile appliance, to screw up my phone, are they planning to screw up my console too? Fair is fair: “Senators Blumenthal, Blackburn, and Klobuchar recognize that independent 3rd party developers are being restricted in anti-competitive ways that impact what users pay for video games and other software,” said Ernesto Falcon, Senior Legislative Counsel at the Electronic Frontier Foundation. “The Open App Markets Act will put a stop to these practices, which will lower the costs for both developers and their customers by setting forth common sense competition policy for the industry.” Or, you know, we can wait it out, let the market decide.

stevenhuang 5y ago

You are conflating side loading apps with security mechanisms provided by the OS.