37 ms·

Forbes misses the point of the 4-day work week

22 points by terpua 18y ago

ideas101 18y ago
forget 4-day work week - think about the sub-culture of 4-Hour workweek... read the book "The 4-Hour Workweek: Escape 9-5, Live Anywhere, and Join the New Rich"
- Hexstream 18y ago
  Ah yes, yet another "Get Rich Quick Without Working" scheme. The world needs that.
swombat 18y ago
Well, that's not really a fair criticism of Forbes, in this case. Yes, Forbes "misses the point" of the "4-day workweek" as preached by 37-signals... but there's a good reason for that: they weren't talking about that version of the 4-day workweek. The Forbes article clearly refers to a 4-day-workweek scheme instituted by Chrysler, not 37-signals - and their analysis of why it's a load of bollocks is pretty much spot on. Forbes hasn't missed the point - Chrysler has.. assuming they were even aware of the existence of that point in the first place, which I doubt. Here we have a case of two things called by the same terms but referring to very different initiatives. Ironically, I think 37-signals missed the point that the article wasn't about them!
- jrsims 18y ago
  A good point. But, Forbes never should have published this article anytime after 1999. The idea of "Four Tens" and "Power Shifts" (as they call it in business-speak) is not a new idea, and really only works for certain types of people in certain roles. A magazine like Forbes should be writing about newer ideas, something along the lines of a 32-hour workweek (37S was not the first to have this idea, as I'm sure many of you must know). It's time, dammit!
- stcredzero 18y ago
  If the article is "about them" in the minds of enough people, then it is effectively about them. In a way, they agree, it's just that the Forbes article is harping on the negatives of not getting it. The 37signals article is talking about what happens when you do get it.
- alex_c 18y ago
  So, the article is 37signals missing the point about Forbes not actually missing the point of Chrysler missing the point of the 4-day workweek?
  - swombat 18y ago
    I think you hit the point on the head.
  - nuclear_eclipse 18y ago
    My brain is crying...
- Goladus 18y ago
  Well, consider the first two sentences of the article: Who wouldn't want a four-day work week? You. It would appear the author is sort of addressing everyone.
sysop073 18y ago
Wow. This got posted to HN 20 minutes after the original Forbes story. Impressive http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=281512 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=281512
KirinDave 18y ago
At this last RailsConf we were introduced to the concept of the 4-day workweek by DHH, and the audience snickered. Many of us are working small companies and startups. The 4-day workweek is definitely a luxury I never could enjoy during my times in small startups. Not only that, but a little bird inside 37s told me that the true 4-day work week works for only a few people at 37s while a few other people put in long, hard hours getting a lot of the tedious work of maintaining a body of software done. If they keep playing at this, DHH is going to exemplify a new icon of the Pointy Haired Boss. The thing that's most frustrating about that is that DHH is actually pretty good at what he does (meaning framework capture), and if he focused more he'd be a lot better and we'd see a lot more good features out of products of 37s.
- Tamerlin 18y ago
  Every time that I've worked with people who put in "startup" hours, they've been less productive than me and the other folks who worked sane hours, and just wrote better code that required less debugging.
  - nostrademons 18y ago
    I've noticed the same thing, but this niggling voice in the back of my head keeps wondering if that's because I was just working on easier problems than they were. There've also been times when I've worked long hours and produced pretty crappy code that didn't really work all that well. There's sorta this downward spiral that a lot of software projects get into. Because the project is difficult, the engineers start working long hours and pushing through to get it done. Because they're working long hours, they get tunnel vision and make mistakes. Because they make mistakes, the codebase sucks. Because the codebase sucks, the project gets more difficult. Etc. The solution is really just to not do hard problems - which is basically what DHH and 37s advocate. But there are a limited supply of easy problems to go around, so you get things like the Web2.0 gold rush where thousands of people are chasing the easy problems.
    - 13ren 18y ago
      Maybe "working later on a late project makes it later"?
axod 18y ago
It'd be nice to move away from obsessive hour counting. It's like measuring a programmers worth in terms of lines of code produced. Give people the freedom to work when they like, and have good measurements in place to ensure they are achieving what they should be.
- blogimus 18y ago
  A problem is that there are many of us who work by the billable hour for companies that are legally liable if hours reporting is found not to be accurate.
  - LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
    I think accurate measurement of time spent and accurate measurement of results achieved are two separate issues.
- ivey 18y ago
  In my consulting business I've tried to move all of my clients to fixed-price iterations: Each iteration has a fixed length and fixed price, and we determine the appropriate scope at the beginning of each one. Hours worked never figures in to it. They budget better, I budget better, I can work smarter not harder some iterations, and bust out the Heroic Measures for others.
mynameishere 18y ago
Lots of factories have 12 hour swing shifts. What I've done in the past is have a 6-day workweek, with Friday and Saturday being 1/2 days. I really liked it, but most people don't have a pleasant walk to work like I do, so the commute is a net loss.

22 points by terpua 18y ago

forget 4-day work week - think about the sub-culture of 4-Hour workweek... read the book "The 4-Hour Workweek: Escape 9-5, Live Anywhere, and Join the New Rich"

Hexstream 18y ago
Ah yes, yet another "Get Rich Quick Without Working" scheme. The world needs that.

swombat 18y ago

Well, that's not really a fair criticism of Forbes, in this case. Yes, Forbes "misses the point" of the "4-day workweek" as preached by 37-signals... but there's a good reason for that: they weren't talking about that version of the 4-day workweek. The Forbes article clearly refers to a 4-day-workweek scheme instituted by Chrysler, not 37-signals - and their analysis of why it's a load of bollocks is pretty much spot on. Forbes hasn't missed the point - Chrysler has.. assuming they were even aware of the existence of that point in the first place, which I doubt. Here we have a case of two things called by the same terms but referring to very different initiatives. Ironically, I think 37-signals missed the point that the article wasn't about them!

jrsims 18y ago
A good point. But, Forbes never should have published this article anytime after 1999. The idea of "Four Tens" and "Power Shifts" (as they call it in business-speak) is not a new idea, and really only works for certain types of people in certain roles. A magazine like Forbes should be writing about newer ideas, something along the lines of a 32-hour workweek (37S was not the first to have this idea, as I'm sure many of you must know). It's time, dammit!
stcredzero 18y ago
If the article is "about them" in the minds of enough people, then it is effectively about them. In a way, they agree, it's just that the Forbes article is harping on the negatives of not getting it. The 37signals article is talking about what happens when you do get it.
alex_c 18y ago
So, the article is 37signals missing the point about Forbes not actually missing the point of Chrysler missing the point of the 4-day workweek?
- swombat 18y ago
  I think you hit the point on the head.
- nuclear_eclipse 18y ago
  My brain is crying...
Goladus 18y ago
Well, consider the first two sentences of the article: Who wouldn't want a four-day work week? You. It would appear the author is sort of addressing everyone.

sysop073 18y ago

Wow. This got posted to HN 20 minutes after the original Forbes story. Impressive http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=281512 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=281512

KirinDave 18y ago

At this last RailsConf we were introduced to the concept of the 4-day workweek by DHH, and the audience snickered. Many of us are working small companies and startups. The 4-day workweek is definitely a luxury I never could enjoy during my times in small startups. Not only that, but a little bird inside 37s told me that the true 4-day work week works for only a few people at 37s while a few other people put in long, hard hours getting a lot of the tedious work of maintaining a body of software done. If they keep playing at this, DHH is going to exemplify a new icon of the Pointy Haired Boss. The thing that's most frustrating about that is that DHH is actually pretty good at what he does (meaning framework capture), and if he focused more he'd be a lot better and we'd see a lot more good features out of products of 37s.

Tamerlin 18y ago
Every time that I've worked with people who put in "startup" hours, they've been less productive than me and the other folks who worked sane hours, and just wrote better code that required less debugging.
- nostrademons 18y ago
  I've noticed the same thing, but this niggling voice in the back of my head keeps wondering if that's because I was just working on easier problems than they were. There've also been times when I've worked long hours and produced pretty crappy code that didn't really work all that well. There's sorta this downward spiral that a lot of software projects get into. Because the project is difficult, the engineers start working long hours and pushing through to get it done. Because they're working long hours, they get tunnel vision and make mistakes. Because they make mistakes, the codebase sucks. Because the codebase sucks, the project gets more difficult. Etc. The solution is really just to not do hard problems - which is basically what DHH and 37s advocate. But there are a limited supply of easy problems to go around, so you get things like the Web2.0 gold rush where thousands of people are chasing the easy problems.
  - 13ren 18y ago
    Maybe "working later on a late project makes it later"?

axod 18y ago

It'd be nice to move away from obsessive hour counting. It's like measuring a programmers worth in terms of lines of code produced. Give people the freedom to work when they like, and have good measurements in place to ensure they are achieving what they should be.

blogimus 18y ago
A problem is that there are many of us who work by the billable hour for companies that are legally liable if hours reporting is found not to be accurate.
- LogicHoleFlaw 18y ago
  I think accurate measurement of time spent and accurate measurement of results achieved are two separate issues.
ivey 18y ago
In my consulting business I've tried to move all of my clients to fixed-price iterations: Each iteration has a fixed length and fixed price, and we determine the appropriate scope at the beginning of each one. Hours worked never figures in to it. They budget better, I budget better, I can work smarter not harder some iterations, and bust out the Heroic Measures for others.

mynameishere 18y ago

Lots of factories have 12 hour swing shifts. What I've done in the past is have a 6-day workweek, with Friday and Saturday being 1/2 days. I really liked it, but most people don't have a pleasant walk to work like I do, so the commute is a net loss.