8 ms·

When I was 18, I wrote some shareware and asked for $10 from those who used and liked the program. Lots of nice people from all over the planet sent in some mon

by trimbo 5y ago

When I was 18, I wrote some shareware and asked for $10 from those who used and liked the program. Lots of nice people from all over the planet sent in some money, and sometimes with letters. Most often it was a thank you note. Sometimes people requested more features in return for paying the requested amount. And occasionally they'd tack on whatever extra they thought those features were worth to them. (That amount was less than minimum wage, if I took the time to implement those features for them and release the software.) I recently visited my friend from our programming club who saved these letters and was reminded a couple people wrote additional angry letters years after paying for the shareware. They demanded support in return for their one payment. (Of course, not only had I moved on to other projects, but I had long sold the type of computer the shareware was created for!) So I learned early on that people unreasonably expect support for no additional cost. Or they believe the amount they paid is for support in the future, not work done in the past. It doesn't work that way economically. A constant flow of additional money has to come in the door to pay a team to do the actual support. AFAICT, the only feasible models for supported software seem to be subscription, microtransaction or advertising. Any one-time-up-front price means it's abandonware. Which is fine for some types of software, of course, but probably not as often as users expect support.

afarrell 5y ago
One could argue that their support team has handled this change unskilfully and that Agilebits should have hired a larger and more skilled support team before having a way to pay that team. One could argue that.... but one would be silly to do so.
mirkules 5y ago
Subscription models make sense for something that needs to stay evergreen. Why does a password manager need a subscription? My password should never touch a 3rd party’s server, I don’t need extra features, I don’t need a login, I don’t need long-term or even short-term support. What ongoing development does a password manager have? Is it that buggy from the get-go to need constant updates?
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  >Why does a password manager need a subscription? It does not, that is why there is KeePassXC and other alternatives.
  - mirkules 5y ago
    Thanks, I haven’t tried that one before.
- brianpan 5y ago
  > What ongoing development does a password manager have? I shutter to think about just trying to keep the status quo across all those platforms, devices, browser extensions. How often do we have new versions of iOS or macOS? What about Windows, Android, Linux, Chrome OS? I can think of a TON of work without adding a single feature.
  - mirkules 5y ago
    Major releases of MacOS and iOS happen once a year. And most of the time they don’t break existing applications (iOS 12 notwithstanding). Almost everything from early iPhone OS to 12, and from 12 onwards worked ok, even with major resolution changes. And the fact that we need to constantly change stuff just for the sake of change is the problem. To add to this: I’m perfectly happy to pay a premium price for software when I need a new version. I did this with Photoshop for years, $399 per copy was perfectly fine for me because I spent that money every 3 or 4 years.
    - robbiep 5y ago
      There are also what I think are reasonable models for providing people with ownership of an app but also being able to charge upgrade fees (for example, TablePlus, Dash, Sublime etc)
    - brianpan 5y ago
      That's the point of this thread. YOU only need a new version every 3-4 years so you don't think there's any work any other time. But you take all those platforms and all those extensions and the result is maintenance by itself is constant work. I'm not talking about change for the sake of change. I'm talking about the work just to keep the features that you have. I have personal projects I'm working on where it feels like all I have time for is just keeping up with security updates, Ubuntu versions, DB version upgrades. Work projects are even worse with SOC2 requirements and the endless stream of CVEs. There's no way a password manager can do nothing for 3-4 years ignoring security vulnerabilities in their dependencies that need to be patched.
noobermin 5y ago
I don't know how subscription fixes your problem. Now people will still yell at you, even once you've moved on to other projects, and even more people will do so since they actually pay and assume that it is your obligation. You haven't fixed the "people are assholes" problem. A better solution honestly is just to accept some percentage of people will be little assholes but hopefully, as you remembered before your friend brought it up, that most people are gracious and kind. Focus on those people.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  I think it's pretty obvious. If you don't provide support when receiving subscriptions people will stop paying.
- afarrell 5y ago
  The subscription fixes the problem because you can use the money from it to solve other problems in your life like having insufficient tacos in your stomach.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> So I learned early on that people unreasonably expect support for no additional cost. Or they believe the amount they paid is for support in the future, not work done in the past. If I buy a piece of software, it's not unreasonable to expect it to work for some period of time after the purchase. This is especially true on the Windows side, where Microsoft has gone to great lengths to keep old APIs around and support most (but not all) old software within reason. I have engineering software programs that are a decade old that still run fine on my Windows 10 machine. macOS has been less shy about deprecating old APIs and forcing software updates. I probably spend $500-1000 every year just upgrading a certain few software packages that charge for a new version every time a new macOS comes out, and I hate it. I don't mind paying for new versions of software, but it's becoming saddening to watch all of my macOS software rapidly decay away with each macOS upgrade unless I buy the newest version.
- deadpanPotato 5y ago
  > it's not unreasonable to expect it to work for some period of time after the purchase. "it works" and "the developer gives me support" are two different things. In this case, I'm sure the shareware he wrote still "worked," but clearly they thought they were entitled to perpetual updates or the ability to chat to the developer any time they like. As far as I'm concerned, the SLA of $10 shareware I volunteered to pay for is "whatever the developer is willing and able to provide." It's $10. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Fwiw, 1Password isn't nuking 1P7 or existing local vaults. Those users are free to keep using v7 for as long as Apple or Microsoft allow the app to be installed on the OS. (And I do agree, macOS and iOS are both quite abrupt about cutting off support and I commend Windows for going to great lengths to avoid it)
xanaxagoras 5y ago
Umm, the thousands of successful software companies before subscriptions, microtransactions and advertising were common in the software industry would like a word with you.

by trimbo 5y ago

afarrell 5y ago

One could argue that their support team has handled this change unskilfully and that Agilebits should have hired a larger and more skilled support team before having a way to pay that team. One could argue that.... but one would be silly to do so.

mirkules 5y ago

Subscription models make sense for something that needs to stay evergreen. Why does a password manager need a subscription? My password should never touch a 3rd party’s server, I don’t need extra features, I don’t need a login, I don’t need long-term or even short-term support. What ongoing development does a password manager have? Is it that buggy from the get-go to need constant updates?

lotsofpulp 5y ago
>Why does a password manager need a subscription? It does not, that is why there is KeePassXC and other alternatives.
- mirkules 5y ago
  Thanks, I haven’t tried that one before.
brianpan 5y ago
> What ongoing development does a password manager have? I shutter to think about just trying to keep the status quo across all those platforms, devices, browser extensions. How often do we have new versions of iOS or macOS? What about Windows, Android, Linux, Chrome OS? I can think of a TON of work without adding a single feature.
- mirkules 5y ago
  Major releases of MacOS and iOS happen once a year. And most of the time they don’t break existing applications (iOS 12 notwithstanding). Almost everything from early iPhone OS to 12, and from 12 onwards worked ok, even with major resolution changes. And the fact that we need to constantly change stuff just for the sake of change is the problem. To add to this: I’m perfectly happy to pay a premium price for software when I need a new version. I did this with Photoshop for years, $399 per copy was perfectly fine for me because I spent that money every 3 or 4 years.
  - robbiep 5y ago
    There are also what I think are reasonable models for providing people with ownership of an app but also being able to charge upgrade fees (for example, TablePlus, Dash, Sublime etc)
  - brianpan 5y ago
    That's the point of this thread. YOU only need a new version every 3-4 years so you don't think there's any work any other time. But you take all those platforms and all those extensions and the result is maintenance by itself is constant work. I'm not talking about change for the sake of change. I'm talking about the work just to keep the features that you have. I have personal projects I'm working on where it feels like all I have time for is just keeping up with security updates, Ubuntu versions, DB version upgrades. Work projects are even worse with SOC2 requirements and the endless stream of CVEs. There's no way a password manager can do nothing for 3-4 years ignoring security vulnerabilities in their dependencies that need to be patched.

noobermin 5y ago

I don't know how subscription fixes your problem. Now people will still yell at you, even once you've moved on to other projects, and even more people will do so since they actually pay and assume that it is your obligation. You haven't fixed the "people are assholes" problem. A better solution honestly is just to accept some percentage of people will be little assholes but hopefully, as you remembered before your friend brought it up, that most people are gracious and kind. Focus on those people.

digianarchist 5y ago
I think it's pretty obvious. If you don't provide support when receiving subscriptions people will stop paying.
afarrell 5y ago
The subscription fixes the problem because you can use the money from it to solve other problems in your life like having insufficient tacos in your stomach.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> So I learned early on that people unreasonably expect support for no additional cost. Or they believe the amount they paid is for support in the future, not work done in the past. If I buy a piece of software, it's not unreasonable to expect it to work for some period of time after the purchase. This is especially true on the Windows side, where Microsoft has gone to great lengths to keep old APIs around and support most (but not all) old software within reason. I have engineering software programs that are a decade old that still run fine on my Windows 10 machine. macOS has been less shy about deprecating old APIs and forcing software updates. I probably spend $500-1000 every year just upgrading a certain few software packages that charge for a new version every time a new macOS comes out, and I hate it. I don't mind paying for new versions of software, but it's becoming saddening to watch all of my macOS software rapidly decay away with each macOS upgrade unless I buy the newest version.

deadpanPotato 5y ago
> it's not unreasonable to expect it to work for some period of time after the purchase. "it works" and "the developer gives me support" are two different things. In this case, I'm sure the shareware he wrote still "worked," but clearly they thought they were entitled to perpetual updates or the ability to chat to the developer any time they like. As far as I'm concerned, the SLA of $10 shareware I volunteered to pay for is "whatever the developer is willing and able to provide." It's $10. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Fwiw, 1Password isn't nuking 1P7 or existing local vaults. Those users are free to keep using v7 for as long as Apple or Microsoft allow the app to be installed on the OS. (And I do agree, macOS and iOS are both quite abrupt about cutting off support and I commend Windows for going to great lengths to avoid it)

xanaxagoras 5y ago

Umm, the thousands of successful software companies before subscriptions, microtransactions and advertising were common in the software industry would like a word with you.