5 ms·

I've crushed on co-workers; I've had crushes on professors; I've had crushes on classmates. Attraction in a work/study environment is real. The thing is ... you

I've crushed on co-workers; I've had crushes on professors; I've had crushes on classmates. Attraction in a work/study environment is real. The thing is ... you don't have to do or say anything, guys. Just keep that stuff locked down like a non-creep and it will eventually pass. Writing love letters to 17 year olds who work for you? Come on. You should know/do better.

RangerScience 5y ago
> keep that stuff locked down Careful with this. IME, everything you feel gets expressed eventually. You either make some choices about that expression, or it leaks out of you - usually in toxic ways (passive aggression, overly controlling behavior, snipe-comments, etc.) Have close friends (and a therapist!) that you can talk to about just about anything. A lot of times, feelings are signals for exploration; "here be learning", as it were. Aubrey even names it, without realizing it (IMO) when he says "could treat [me] as an equal on every other level". I'm betting that if Aubrey had taken the time to feel and understand, he'd have realized that Deming (at that time) wasn't someone he could actually treat as an equal on every level. (And, probably, that he had a need for more people in his life that he could).
- zozbot234 5y ago
  From reading his email to her, it's clear that he did realize this, but somehow he also thought he could get away with writing a suggestive email to her about his "adventurous love life" [sic]. (To be clear, referencing such things in a written work email would be regarded as grossly unprofessional no matter what the circumstances, but Laura being 17 and working for him at the time makes it quite outrageous.)
  - RangerScience 5y ago
    Was the email published? All I've got to go off of is the snippet from the OP.
    - phnofive 5y ago
      No, but Aubrey confirms it: > "Laura references an email I wrote - inadvisedly, for sure, and which I unreservedly regret - to her when she was 17"
      - dkersten 5y ago
        He confirms that he wrote an inadvised email. We still do not know the actual content or context around the email, so we don't know if it was malicious, abuse or simply somewhat inappropriate but otherwise malign. We know she felt uncomfortable over it, but we do not know if he wrote it innocently-but-stupidly or if there is more to it.
        phnofive 5y ago
        I can see how 'inadvised' and 'regret' could refer to further projection of blame, but the author is dead, and that's not how it reads to me.
        CRConrad 5y ago
        ITYM "but otherwise benign", right?
  - dkersten 5y ago
    > To be clear, referencing such things in a written work email would be regarded as grossly unprofessional no matter what the circumstances, but Laura being 17 and working for him at the time makes it quite outrageous. I dunno. Ill-advised, sure. Inappropriate, maybe. I've had all kinds of personal conversations with coworkers and bosses, there was never anything more to it. Yes, that she was 17 means he should have been more professional about it, but in and of itself, without knowing the contents of the email, I don't think its any more strange than perfectly normal but personal conversations I've had with people I've worked with. Without seeing the email and the context around which it was sent, I don't think we can judge in either direction based off the existence of the email alone.
marcusverus 5y ago
> I've crushed on co-workers; I've had crushes on professors; I've had crushes on classmates. Attraction in a work/study environment is real. The thing is ... you don't have to do or say anything, guys. Just keep that stuff locked down like a non-creep and it will eventually pass. Expressing romantic interest in a co-worker or classmate is not de-facto inappropriate. Your advice is solid for folks in positions of power, but for the rest of us, not so much. The idea that young men and women who work together should be forbidden from exploring relationships with with classmates or coworkers is a kind of bizarre neo-puritanism. (Your human nature? That's bad! Ignore it!) And for what? To prevent the occasional, momentary discomfort of rebuffing a respectful advance? Of course nobody should have to endure sexual harassment, socially inept creepiness, or blind persistence from unwanted suiters. And people who engage in these behaviors should be paid a visit from HR (and eventually receive a pink slip). But the vast majority of adults are capable of tactful communication, and should not be prevented from exploring the full possibilities of their interpersonal relationships simply because the relationship began at work.
- JabavuAdams 5y ago
  I agree in principle, but we should also consider the asymmetric effects in practice. If every female co-worker gets multiple unsolicited advances per year, that could be a problem, even if the advances are tactful, between equals, and listen to rejection. At some level you just want to go in to work, not be spammed with advances all the time. It's different for most guys we don't get nearly the amount of interest, even if we're attractive. So it would be crucial to try to understand what women experience and what they want out of a workplace instead of just going on abstract concepts.
  - kbenson 5y ago
    Studies show that between 10%-20% or people meet their spouses at work. It makes sense that far more than that have had long relationships with people they met at work. I suspect the actual situation with regard to women and men at work and approaching each other, and whether it's wanted or unwanted, is somewhat more complicated than "women get badgered".
- 5y ago

RangerScience 5y ago

> keep that stuff locked down Careful with this. IME, everything you feel gets expressed eventually. You either make some choices about that expression, or it leaks out of you - usually in toxic ways (passive aggression, overly controlling behavior, snipe-comments, etc.) Have close friends (and a therapist!) that you can talk to about just about anything. A lot of times, feelings are signals for exploration; "here be learning", as it were. Aubrey even names it, without realizing it (IMO) when he says "could treat [me] as an equal on every other level". I'm betting that if Aubrey had taken the time to feel and understand, he'd have realized that Deming (at that time) wasn't someone he could actually treat as an equal on every level. (And, probably, that he had a need for more people in his life that he could).

zozbot234 5y ago
From reading his email to her, it's clear that he did realize this, but somehow he also thought he could get away with writing a suggestive email to her about his "adventurous love life" [sic]. (To be clear, referencing such things in a written work email would be regarded as grossly unprofessional no matter what the circumstances, but Laura being 17 and working for him at the time makes it quite outrageous.)
- RangerScience 5y ago
  Was the email published? All I've got to go off of is the snippet from the OP.
  - phnofive 5y ago
    No, but Aubrey confirms it: > "Laura references an email I wrote - inadvisedly, for sure, and which I unreservedly regret - to her when she was 17"
    - dkersten 5y ago
      He confirms that he wrote an inadvised email. We still do not know the actual content or context around the email, so we don't know if it was malicious, abuse or simply somewhat inappropriate but otherwise malign. We know she felt uncomfortable over it, but we do not know if he wrote it innocently-but-stupidly or if there is more to it.
      - phnofive 5y ago
        I can see how 'inadvised' and 'regret' could refer to further projection of blame, but the author is dead, and that's not how it reads to me.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        ITYM "but otherwise benign", right?
- dkersten 5y ago
  > To be clear, referencing such things in a written work email would be regarded as grossly unprofessional no matter what the circumstances, but Laura being 17 and working for him at the time makes it quite outrageous. I dunno. Ill-advised, sure. Inappropriate, maybe. I've had all kinds of personal conversations with coworkers and bosses, there was never anything more to it. Yes, that she was 17 means he should have been more professional about it, but in and of itself, without knowing the contents of the email, I don't think its any more strange than perfectly normal but personal conversations I've had with people I've worked with. Without seeing the email and the context around which it was sent, I don't think we can judge in either direction based off the existence of the email alone.

marcusverus 5y ago

> I've crushed on co-workers; I've had crushes on professors; I've had crushes on classmates. Attraction in a work/study environment is real. The thing is ... you don't have to do or say anything, guys. Just keep that stuff locked down like a non-creep and it will eventually pass. Expressing romantic interest in a co-worker or classmate is not de-facto inappropriate. Your advice is solid for folks in positions of power, but for the rest of us, not so much. The idea that young men and women who work together should be forbidden from exploring relationships with with classmates or coworkers is a kind of bizarre neo-puritanism. (Your human nature? That's bad! Ignore it!) And for what? To prevent the occasional, momentary discomfort of rebuffing a respectful advance? Of course nobody should have to endure sexual harassment, socially inept creepiness, or blind persistence from unwanted suiters. And people who engage in these behaviors should be paid a visit from HR (and eventually receive a pink slip). But the vast majority of adults are capable of tactful communication, and should not be prevented from exploring the full possibilities of their interpersonal relationships simply because the relationship began at work.

JabavuAdams 5y ago
I agree in principle, but we should also consider the asymmetric effects in practice. If every female co-worker gets multiple unsolicited advances per year, that could be a problem, even if the advances are tactful, between equals, and listen to rejection. At some level you just want to go in to work, not be spammed with advances all the time. It's different for most guys we don't get nearly the amount of interest, even if we're attractive. So it would be crucial to try to understand what women experience and what they want out of a workplace instead of just going on abstract concepts.
- kbenson 5y ago
  Studies show that between 10%-20% or people meet their spouses at work. It makes sense that far more than that have had long relationships with people they met at work. I suspect the actual situation with regard to women and men at work and approaching each other, and whether it's wanted or unwanted, is somewhat more complicated than "women get badgered".
5y ago