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I don’t know how anyone here can accept that. Are we all planning to never get old? We can’t do this job until retirement? We need a career change mid way? Is a

I don’t know how anyone here can accept that. Are we all planning to never get old? We can’t do this job until retirement? We need a career change mid way? Is anyone warning the younger generation that this is only half a career? Seriously, what the fuck is everyone’s plan?

cushychicken 5y ago
what the fuck is everyone’s plan? Mine is to achieve financial independence by living well within my means, saving a lot of my take home pay, and investing that savings into index funds. Having that basis of financial security will, at some point, allow me some freedom to consult at my leisure. In the meantime, it gives me the freedom to leave a job if it turns out to go south.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  > Mine is to achieve financial independence by living well within my means, saving a lot of my take home pay, and investing that savings into index funds. Bingo.
  - cushychicken 5y ago
    It's working great so far!
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  You better hope the market continues this tear ad infinitum, 'cause nothing else pays any sort of return that you can survive on.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    It won't, but it will allow a buildup that is going to survive the correction. I know that one of my funds has never made less than 6%, and that was in 2009. It has done considerably better, since (and before). I've been saving and investing 25%-40% of my income for over 30 years. If it all goes down the drain, I am quite capable of doing a whole lot of stuff. The classics are always a good bet.
  - cushychicken 5y ago
    You better hope the market continues this tear ad infinitum Capitalism has a way of doing that, in spite of its momentary lapses and corrections. (Wish the same was true for health care.) Index funds are a good way to make sure that someone else is getting paid to do the hard work of investing for me. I'm cautiously optimistic.
  - strix_varius 5y ago
    Most folks don’t plan to live purely on the returns. If the typical person works for 50 years, and you saved/invested 50% of your income for 25 years, then you’ve effectively matched both the means and the cost of living of someone making half your salary. As a software developer, it isn’t unrealistic to plan to retire around 45, for example.
Thrymr 5y ago
Presumably that is one reason that the FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) idea is so popular in the industry. People don't expect to be able to work to age 65, so it's best to plan not to.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  I heard in real life "if you are over 35 you should start thinking about another line of work" .. in all seriousness, thirty-five..
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    I believe it. For myself, I love developing software. The design, problem-solving, coding, testing, but, most importantly, seeing folks use it, and knowing that my software is A Good Thing. For most of my career, I was a manager in my "day job," which meant that my tech chops were barely exercised. My company didn't have a "shower clause" in their employment contract, so I could work my own gig. I deliberately avoided making money, and I also deliberately avoided writing anything that could compete with my company, or make them look bad (Which I easily could have). It was a matter of Respect (for me). So I did open-source stuff, for over twenty years. I developed a fairly robust system that has become the de facto world standard for a particular demographic, and a few apps and whatnot, around it. I have also developed a whole slew of SPM modules, which are really high-Quality. I use most of them, myself (eat my own dog food), so their Quality needs to be "top shelf." I wrote and released over 20 iOS (and Watch, Mac, and TV) apps, since 2012, but I'm down to just a couple, nowadays. I'm writing a fairly ambitious native iOS app, right now. It's the frontend for a fairly intense set of servers. I've been working on it for a year (and an additional seven months, writing one of the servers, and the other server is the one I mentioned previously -I've worked on that for over ten years). I feel that it is just getting to the point where we can start refining the UX. I have been establishing the infrastructure, to this point. That's where my heart lies. I'm actually a very good manager, but I don't love it, and don't miss it.
  - cgh 5y ago
    Was this in the front-end web development world? Because it’s not the case in the rest of the software industry. Tell some 35 year old embedded programmer that they are “too old” to write CAN bus code and they’ll look at you like you have three heads.
sverona 5y ago
Die in the climate wars, probably.
greedo 5y ago
I've been IT since I abandoned the restaurant biz in the 90s. So I have roughly 25 years of experience, and look forward to my retirement in 8 years. I've worked at three startups, and two large enterprises. There are a lot of IT jobs in non-FAANG companies that place more value on experience and domain knowledge, but they're not as glamorous or high-paying. Midwest companies, or places like banks/insurance companies. Stable companies that tend to change at a slower pace. This can be good or bad depending on your personality and professional drives. I've always had a bit of paranoia about job security, but looking back, that's usually been a result of imposter syndrome. The one thing that has helped my career tremendously is being generally agreeable. No one likes to work with the asshole rockstar, but someone who is easy going, shares credit and helps keep everyone as positive as realistically possible is valuable. Just make sure your boss sees this in you.
- durandal1 5y ago
  On the contrary, the companies in FAANG are exactly the kind of employers that highly value experience (and pay for it). If you have a wealth of experience in a field, the easiest way to get paid for it is probably FAANG. You still have to be at the top of your game though, regardless of age.
  - skeeter2020 5y ago
    This is either wildly out of touch or just wrong. Everything from their recruitment & interview process to the work practices to the perks is geared towards younger people. My current employer is a great example: I was trying to get short-term disability for a 20-something who suffered a back injury and found out the company had voted against adding ST disability (who needs that?) but no worries we have ping pong and beer on tap, plus a weekly hair dresser who visits the office.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
      Now, that is a sad story. I hope that they were able to get help, because early back injuries have a habit of coming back to haunt you, later in life. I have a bad back from a tweak I did, when I was 18. Nowadays, it is an entire new universe of pain. Back then, it was just a little twinge.
joelbluminator 5y ago
If you are a U.S based dev it is quite possible for you to gain financial independece by your mid 50s. You can then work at anything to pass the time, become a school teacher idk. For European/ROW devs the salaries are way lower and the problem is more pronounced.
- MandieD 5y ago
  Germany, if you go for big boring corporate IT in a mid-sized metro area instead of the supercool Berlin startup scene, and tune out peer pressure to take the “awesome” company lease deal on an A6/5-Series.
  - mateo411 5y ago
    Wait, German companies give tech workers the opportunity to take out a lease on an Audi? That's a new one. I don't know any US tech people that get a company car.
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    Can you realistically retire at 55? What's the salary range in say SAP?
    - MandieD 5y ago
      Not sure about SAP, but I’m on track for 55-57 with a good margin of safety. I know mostly about the IG Metall ERA Manteltarifvertrag, which covers employers like Siemens and Bosch (and mine). The levels differ by region, but at my employer in Bavaria, recent CS/MIS grads would start at EG 8 or 9, while software engineers and IT admins with a few years of experience would start at 10. A senior software engineer or data scientist would probably come in at 11 or 12, and might be able to negotiate “außer Tarif” (higher pay) if particularly sought after. After a good first year, you’re likely to get bumped up a level and/or get a performance raise of up to 28%, re-evaluated annually. Pay in Bavaria looks to be a bit higher than most other regions. You also get 30 days of vacation on top of a lot of state/federal holidays, plus extra vacation money in June and December. The base pay tables: https://www.igmetall.de/download/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2018_78d3e1848939887f53dcf9506907870bb637c493.pdf https://www.igmetall.de/download/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2... (Edited to add) and at least the rates for Bavaria are for a 35 hr/week contract. Multiply by 1.14 to find the rate for a 40 hour contract.
AlexCoventry 5y ago
"I always knew everyone ages, but I thought somehow, in my case, an exception would be made."
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  That's what's so weird about SV ageism (actually, I live in New York, and tech ageism in NY is much worse than SV). I won't wake up tomorrow and suddenly be black or latino. I probably won't turn gay (I've had my chances, and ignored them, so I'm stuck in boring old Heteropolis). I probably won't wake up a woman (although it is -technically- possible). I will, however, wake up tomorrow, one day older than I am today. We all will (God willing). I'm not sure that folks are realizing that they are setting up a system, that will, sure as the swallows return to Capistrano (until climate change alters that), end up being the petard, upon which they, themselves, will be hoist. It's like Robespierre, and his fun toy.
emodendroket 5y ago
Make hay while the sun shines. Isn't that pretty much everyone's plan, regardless of what their job is?
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  I feel like deep down inside, this unspoken time limit is contributing to all the burn out we read about. When you have such a short window, it amplifies the pressure.
nickd2001 5y ago
Fear not and do not panic :) If you build decent skills (especially open source stuff, not fads and things where there's vendor lock-in), and you're generous, kind and helpful to other people, and do the stuff the original article said, you will always be in demand. Well, I'm not too far off 50 and not had much of a problem yet. There's the odd person that is probably age-is to me, but if I was 25 those sort of people would probably be mean to me for some other random reason. It doesn't hurt to try to avoid bad things that develop in some people with age e:g anger, cynicism. I think those probably come from too many years of work without enough breaks. So, make sure you get enough time off!

cushychicken 5y ago

what the fuck is everyone’s plan? Mine is to achieve financial independence by living well within my means, saving a lot of my take home pay, and investing that savings into index funds. Having that basis of financial security will, at some point, allow me some freedom to consult at my leisure. In the meantime, it gives me the freedom to leave a job if it turns out to go south.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> Mine is to achieve financial independence by living well within my means, saving a lot of my take home pay, and investing that savings into index funds. Bingo.
- cushychicken 5y ago
  It's working great so far!
skeeter2020 5y ago
You better hope the market continues this tear ad infinitum, 'cause nothing else pays any sort of return that you can survive on.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  It won't, but it will allow a buildup that is going to survive the correction. I know that one of my funds has never made less than 6%, and that was in 2009. It has done considerably better, since (and before). I've been saving and investing 25%-40% of my income for over 30 years. If it all goes down the drain, I am quite capable of doing a whole lot of stuff. The classics are always a good bet.
- cushychicken 5y ago
  You better hope the market continues this tear ad infinitum Capitalism has a way of doing that, in spite of its momentary lapses and corrections. (Wish the same was true for health care.) Index funds are a good way to make sure that someone else is getting paid to do the hard work of investing for me. I'm cautiously optimistic.
- strix_varius 5y ago
  Most folks don’t plan to live purely on the returns. If the typical person works for 50 years, and you saved/invested 50% of your income for 25 years, then you’ve effectively matched both the means and the cost of living of someone making half your salary. As a software developer, it isn’t unrealistic to plan to retire around 45, for example.

Thrymr 5y ago

Presumably that is one reason that the FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early) idea is so popular in the industry. People don't expect to be able to work to age 65, so it's best to plan not to.

mistrial9 5y ago
I heard in real life "if you are over 35 you should start thinking about another line of work" .. in all seriousness, thirty-five..
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  I believe it. For myself, I love developing software. The design, problem-solving, coding, testing, but, most importantly, seeing folks use it, and knowing that my software is A Good Thing. For most of my career, I was a manager in my "day job," which meant that my tech chops were barely exercised. My company didn't have a "shower clause" in their employment contract, so I could work my own gig. I deliberately avoided making money, and I also deliberately avoided writing anything that could compete with my company, or make them look bad (Which I easily could have). It was a matter of Respect (for me). So I did open-source stuff, for over twenty years. I developed a fairly robust system that has become the de facto world standard for a particular demographic, and a few apps and whatnot, around it. I have also developed a whole slew of SPM modules, which are really high-Quality. I use most of them, myself (eat my own dog food), so their Quality needs to be "top shelf." I wrote and released over 20 iOS (and Watch, Mac, and TV) apps, since 2012, but I'm down to just a couple, nowadays. I'm writing a fairly ambitious native iOS app, right now. It's the frontend for a fairly intense set of servers. I've been working on it for a year (and an additional seven months, writing one of the servers, and the other server is the one I mentioned previously -I've worked on that for over ten years). I feel that it is just getting to the point where we can start refining the UX. I have been establishing the infrastructure, to this point. That's where my heart lies. I'm actually a very good manager, but I don't love it, and don't miss it.
- cgh 5y ago
  Was this in the front-end web development world? Because it’s not the case in the rest of the software industry. Tell some 35 year old embedded programmer that they are “too old” to write CAN bus code and they’ll look at you like you have three heads.

sverona 5y ago

Die in the climate wars, probably.

greedo 5y ago

I've been IT since I abandoned the restaurant biz in the 90s. So I have roughly 25 years of experience, and look forward to my retirement in 8 years. I've worked at three startups, and two large enterprises. There are a lot of IT jobs in non-FAANG companies that place more value on experience and domain knowledge, but they're not as glamorous or high-paying. Midwest companies, or places like banks/insurance companies. Stable companies that tend to change at a slower pace. This can be good or bad depending on your personality and professional drives. I've always had a bit of paranoia about job security, but looking back, that's usually been a result of imposter syndrome. The one thing that has helped my career tremendously is being generally agreeable. No one likes to work with the asshole rockstar, but someone who is easy going, shares credit and helps keep everyone as positive as realistically possible is valuable. Just make sure your boss sees this in you.

durandal1 5y ago
On the contrary, the companies in FAANG are exactly the kind of employers that highly value experience (and pay for it). If you have a wealth of experience in a field, the easiest way to get paid for it is probably FAANG. You still have to be at the top of your game though, regardless of age.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
  This is either wildly out of touch or just wrong. Everything from their recruitment & interview process to the work practices to the perks is geared towards younger people. My current employer is a great example: I was trying to get short-term disability for a 20-something who suffered a back injury and found out the company had voted against adding ST disability (who needs that?) but no worries we have ping pong and beer on tap, plus a weekly hair dresser who visits the office.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    Now, that is a sad story. I hope that they were able to get help, because early back injuries have a habit of coming back to haunt you, later in life. I have a bad back from a tweak I did, when I was 18. Nowadays, it is an entire new universe of pain. Back then, it was just a little twinge.

joelbluminator 5y ago

If you are a U.S based dev it is quite possible for you to gain financial independece by your mid 50s. You can then work at anything to pass the time, become a school teacher idk. For European/ROW devs the salaries are way lower and the problem is more pronounced.

MandieD 5y ago
Germany, if you go for big boring corporate IT in a mid-sized metro area instead of the supercool Berlin startup scene, and tune out peer pressure to take the “awesome” company lease deal on an A6/5-Series.
- mateo411 5y ago
  Wait, German companies give tech workers the opportunity to take out a lease on an Audi? That's a new one. I don't know any US tech people that get a company car.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Can you realistically retire at 55? What's the salary range in say SAP?
  - MandieD 5y ago
    Not sure about SAP, but I’m on track for 55-57 with a good margin of safety. I know mostly about the IG Metall ERA Manteltarifvertrag, which covers employers like Siemens and Bosch (and mine). The levels differ by region, but at my employer in Bavaria, recent CS/MIS grads would start at EG 8 or 9, while software engineers and IT admins with a few years of experience would start at 10. A senior software engineer or data scientist would probably come in at 11 or 12, and might be able to negotiate “außer Tarif” (higher pay) if particularly sought after. After a good first year, you’re likely to get bumped up a level and/or get a performance raise of up to 28%, re-evaluated annually. Pay in Bavaria looks to be a bit higher than most other regions. You also get 30 days of vacation on top of a lot of state/federal holidays, plus extra vacation money in June and December. The base pay tables: https://www.igmetall.de/download/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2018_78d3e1848939887f53dcf9506907870bb637c493.pdf https://www.igmetall.de/download/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2... (Edited to add) and at least the rates for Bavaria are for a 35 hr/week contract. Multiply by 1.14 to find the rate for a 40 hour contract.

AlexCoventry 5y ago

"I always knew everyone ages, but I thought somehow, in my case, an exception would be made."

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
That's what's so weird about SV ageism (actually, I live in New York, and tech ageism in NY is much worse than SV). I won't wake up tomorrow and suddenly be black or latino. I probably won't turn gay (I've had my chances, and ignored them, so I'm stuck in boring old Heteropolis). I probably won't wake up a woman (although it is -technically- possible). I will, however, wake up tomorrow, one day older than I am today. We all will (God willing). I'm not sure that folks are realizing that they are setting up a system, that will, sure as the swallows return to Capistrano (until climate change alters that), end up being the petard, upon which they, themselves, will be hoist. It's like Robespierre, and his fun toy.

emodendroket 5y ago

Make hay while the sun shines. Isn't that pretty much everyone's plan, regardless of what their job is?

runawaybottle 5y ago
I feel like deep down inside, this unspoken time limit is contributing to all the burn out we read about. When you have such a short window, it amplifies the pressure.

nickd2001 5y ago

Fear not and do not panic :) If you build decent skills (especially open source stuff, not fads and things where there's vendor lock-in), and you're generous, kind and helpful to other people, and do the stuff the original article said, you will always be in demand. Well, I'm not too far off 50 and not had much of a problem yet. There's the odd person that is probably age-is to me, but if I was 25 those sort of people would probably be mean to me for some other random reason. It doesn't hurt to try to avoid bad things that develop in some people with age e:g anger, cynicism. I think those probably come from too many years of work without enough breaks. So, make sure you get enough time off!