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> This is a real band aid that will do nothing to dissuade people from continuing their abusive behaviour. Band aid, yes. The only thing that will change beha

> This is a real band aid that will do nothing to dissuade people from continuing their abusive behaviour. Band aid, yes. The only thing that will change behaviour is consequences. I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched. I am almost entirely liberated from consequences in the online world. Online I can't see the person I'm abusing, I don't see their pain, I have zero chance of empathising with them. Even verified accounts wont help, if there are no consequences to me abusing someone. The next best thing is to hellban. (in my opinion.) The problem is, doing that at scale is exceptionally hard.

nova22033 5y ago
I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched Just so we're clear...if you live in the US, you absolutely have a right to stand on the street corner and abuse me as long as you're not likely to cause imminent lawless action...all of that without getting punched. You absolutely can call for all people of my ethnic/racial group to be deported(or worse). What you can't do is call for your followers to go kill me or burn down my house or any other lawless action. You DO NOT have a right to say those things on facebook/youtube. In case anyone was thinking of bring up the "fighting words exception", please read this https://www.thefire.org/misconceptions-about-the-fighting-words-exception/ https://www.thefire.org/misconceptions-about-the-fighting-wo...
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  He wasn't talking about legal rights, he was talking about real consequences.
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    exactly this, I'm not talking about legal consequences. I'm talking about literally being punched in the face for saying something that you'd hear a 14 year old gamer shout over the microphone. In the real world, they'd never say it to my face, because they know I might tell their parents
BEEdwards 5y ago
"I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched." So weird, I don't verbally abuse people because I'm not a dick, built different I guess...
- he_is_legend 5y ago
  Whoosh
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Whether they missed the point or not, you're missing their point. Someone willing to be a dick on the internet specifically because there's no fear of physical retaliation is still a dick. Whether they can see the result of their abuse does't mean it is not abuse. If more people took the concept of don't be a dick just because you're safe behind the keyboard, I don't think we'd be where we are now.
    - he_is_legend 5y ago
      > If more people took the concept of don't be a dick just because you're safe behind the keyboard, I don't think we'd be where we are now. Which was the entire gist of the OP, no? Perhaps I misread / misunderstood.
      - dylan604 5y ago
        So what was the purpose of your enlightened 1 one word response of "whoosh" if not to express the point flying high above one's head?
    - KaiserPro 5y ago
      Thats not entirely what I am saying. I should have used a less violent example. We are social animals, breaking social rules leads to consequences(often implied and often trivial). Abusing people in real life breaks social rules, which means that you feel bad. (in most situations, bullying is a notable exception, but again that's based on consequences, the abused party continues because they fear the consequences of not conforming. ) In the online world, you don't see the results, there is no person getting upset, there is no relationship, there are no friends that see you be a dick and shun you. its just text, its easy to "other"
watwut 5y ago
> I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched. I am almost entirely liberated from consequences in the online world. Online I can't see the person I'm abusing, I don't see their pain, I have zero chance of empathising with them. This makes me think that if I am physically weaker and guaranteed not to beat you, you will abuse me in person until I cry or am otherwise seriously disturbed.
- ratww 5y ago
  That's the point. KaiserPro probably won't do it, but a lot of people certainly will. Online, however, it doesn't matter how strong you are. Anyone can be a bully or be on the receiving end.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Furthermore, if "the other side" on any particular issue is spewing vitriol and harassing people then your side loses a little by not doing the same because the other side's behavior will (at the margins) cause the normal people caught in the middle who might support you to keep their heads down thereby making it look like your side is less accepted and their side is more accepted. So not only will people do it but it is incentivized from a game theory perspective.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  I should have written this as a third person. I was trying to get across for people who think empathy is weakness, that we all moderate our behaviour because of consequences. I don't abuse people in real life because I have a deep seated need to be liked. Pissing people off makes them not like me. This is a consequence. Seeing someone disapprove of what I'm saying, as I say it, burns.
dylan604 5y ago
> have zero chance of empathising with them. Wow. At least you can admit this. To me, this summarizes most of the divisive nature in today's society. People just cannot empathise with other people any more. It's a very sad bit of social commentary. To me, rather than bringing people together, social media has lost that bit of humanity where people seem to just think of other users as non-people and just some anonymous chatbot level of emmotionless rather than an actual human. We should develop a method so that when you make an online comment that you would not make in person for fear of being punched, the readers of the asshole comment can trigger your monitor to release a punch. It can be as outlandish and cartoonish as Data's boxing glove on a spring from the Goonies. So now, instead of just being afraid of being punched by the one person the comment was made, you must now be afraid of being punched by anyone on the internet that can read the comment. For those too young to have seen the Goonies, jump to 1:35 for the reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLzupaRrzAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLzupaRrzAY
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  Empathy is a learned skill, one that we don't teach. in the online world you have to chose to empathise, and its really easy not to. This is why I seek out what "the other side" are thinking, and why they say what they do. Because otherwise its really easy just to dismiss them as "stooges", "snowflakes" "nazi" or any other signposted pejorative. but I'm not perfect, as my comments will show. Sometimes I fail.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    >Empathy is a learned skill, one that we don't teach. one that we don't teach, anymore. maybe i'll go along with that, but it was definitely taught when i was a kid. "how would that make you feel if they did that to you?" was a very common chastisement growing up. not just from my mom, but from teachers in elementary school as well. then of course being drug to church by my mom, there was always people spouting "remember the golden rule". which when it comes down to it, is the only thing i really "took" from church. i treat people how i would like to be treated myself. so, if none of that basic stuff is being taught nowadays, i weep for humanity ;-) btw, we all fail, we just have to strive to do better!?!

nova22033 5y ago

I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched Just so we're clear...if you live in the US, you absolutely have a right to stand on the street corner and abuse me as long as you're not likely to cause imminent lawless action...all of that without getting punched. You absolutely can call for all people of my ethnic/racial group to be deported(or worse). What you can't do is call for your followers to go kill me or burn down my house or any other lawless action. You DO NOT have a right to say those things on facebook/youtube. In case anyone was thinking of bring up the "fighting words exception", please read this https://www.thefire.org/misconceptions-about-the-fighting-words-exception/ https://www.thefire.org/misconceptions-about-the-fighting-wo...

amanaplanacanal 5y ago
He wasn't talking about legal rights, he was talking about real consequences.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  exactly this, I'm not talking about legal consequences. I'm talking about literally being punched in the face for saying something that you'd hear a 14 year old gamer shout over the microphone. In the real world, they'd never say it to my face, because they know I might tell their parents

BEEdwards 5y ago

"I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched." So weird, I don't verbally abuse people because I'm not a dick, built different I guess...

he_is_legend 5y ago
Whoosh
- dylan604 5y ago
  Whether they missed the point or not, you're missing their point. Someone willing to be a dick on the internet specifically because there's no fear of physical retaliation is still a dick. Whether they can see the result of their abuse does't mean it is not abuse. If more people took the concept of don't be a dick just because you're safe behind the keyboard, I don't think we'd be where we are now.
  - he_is_legend 5y ago
    > If more people took the concept of don't be a dick just because you're safe behind the keyboard, I don't think we'd be where we are now. Which was the entire gist of the OP, no? Perhaps I misread / misunderstood.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      So what was the purpose of your enlightened 1 one word response of "whoosh" if not to express the point flying high above one's head?
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    Thats not entirely what I am saying. I should have used a less violent example. We are social animals, breaking social rules leads to consequences(often implied and often trivial). Abusing people in real life breaks social rules, which means that you feel bad. (in most situations, bullying is a notable exception, but again that's based on consequences, the abused party continues because they fear the consequences of not conforming. ) In the online world, you don't see the results, there is no person getting upset, there is no relationship, there are no friends that see you be a dick and shun you. its just text, its easy to "other"

watwut 5y ago

> I don't verbally abuse people face to face because there is a non zero chance of being punched. I am almost entirely liberated from consequences in the online world. Online I can't see the person I'm abusing, I don't see their pain, I have zero chance of empathising with them. This makes me think that if I am physically weaker and guaranteed not to beat you, you will abuse me in person until I cry or am otherwise seriously disturbed.

ratww 5y ago
That's the point. KaiserPro probably won't do it, but a lot of people certainly will. Online, however, it doesn't matter how strong you are. Anyone can be a bully or be on the receiving end.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Furthermore, if "the other side" on any particular issue is spewing vitriol and harassing people then your side loses a little by not doing the same because the other side's behavior will (at the margins) cause the normal people caught in the middle who might support you to keep their heads down thereby making it look like your side is less accepted and their side is more accepted. So not only will people do it but it is incentivized from a game theory perspective.
KaiserPro 5y ago
I should have written this as a third person. I was trying to get across for people who think empathy is weakness, that we all moderate our behaviour because of consequences. I don't abuse people in real life because I have a deep seated need to be liked. Pissing people off makes them not like me. This is a consequence. Seeing someone disapprove of what I'm saying, as I say it, burns.

dylan604 5y ago

> have zero chance of empathising with them. Wow. At least you can admit this. To me, this summarizes most of the divisive nature in today's society. People just cannot empathise with other people any more. It's a very sad bit of social commentary. To me, rather than bringing people together, social media has lost that bit of humanity where people seem to just think of other users as non-people and just some anonymous chatbot level of emmotionless rather than an actual human. We should develop a method so that when you make an online comment that you would not make in person for fear of being punched, the readers of the asshole comment can trigger your monitor to release a punch. It can be as outlandish and cartoonish as Data's boxing glove on a spring from the Goonies. So now, instead of just being afraid of being punched by the one person the comment was made, you must now be afraid of being punched by anyone on the internet that can read the comment. For those too young to have seen the Goonies, jump to 1:35 for the reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLzupaRrzAY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLzupaRrzAY

KaiserPro 5y ago
Empathy is a learned skill, one that we don't teach. in the online world you have to chose to empathise, and its really easy not to. This is why I seek out what "the other side" are thinking, and why they say what they do. Because otherwise its really easy just to dismiss them as "stooges", "snowflakes" "nazi" or any other signposted pejorative. but I'm not perfect, as my comments will show. Sometimes I fail.
- dylan604 5y ago
  >Empathy is a learned skill, one that we don't teach. one that we don't teach, anymore. maybe i'll go along with that, but it was definitely taught when i was a kid. "how would that make you feel if they did that to you?" was a very common chastisement growing up. not just from my mom, but from teachers in elementary school as well. then of course being drug to church by my mom, there was always people spouting "remember the golden rule". which when it comes down to it, is the only thing i really "took" from church. i treat people how i would like to be treated myself. so, if none of that basic stuff is being taught nowadays, i weep for humanity ;-) btw, we all fail, we just have to strive to do better!?!