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"I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track do

"I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track down the person who did this, but their help ends there." ... Fuck. That. I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost. If my business does this to someone I make it right. Even if that means going into my own goddamn pocket. Anything less is simple villainy. If you are going to enjoy the rewards of your business, you have a moral obligation to ensure that you make things right when that business harms someone else. And let us be clear: this is harm. This isn't "oh dear, my careless guest spilled wine on my TV. Buy me a new one guys." This is "the guest you sent me destroyed my home and sense of safety." This is completely beyond the pale, an incredible stretch no one, clearly, bothered to imagine. Crucially: it's completely documented by law enforcement. If it's true these guys aren't going to make this right, Airbnb is dead to me. Fuck Obama O's, to hell with their Cap'n McCains, and all the struggle that earned my admiration. I'd say that to their faces, I'd say that if I worked there, and I'd quit if I worked there and this wasn't made right. This is a test of human decency. I hope they don't fail it.

rokekr 15y ago
>This is "the guest you sent me destroyed my home and sense of safety." Not to mention the theft of personal documents and potential theft of identity. The (very real) potential of being bushwhacked by additional fraud years down the line due to this incident is pretty horrifying.
oldstrangers 15y ago
"This is a test of human decency. I hope they don't fail it." Technically, they've already failed it. Now they just have to admit that they failed, and actually fix the problem (financially). If this was my company, a "worst case scenario" money chest and an itemized plan-of-action would've been the first thing I created. Investors are protected (in a number of ways) from the financial risk of investing in Airbnb (or any company); the clients should have a similar expectation of security, considering that they're creating the value for investors.
- danilocampos 15y ago
  > Technically, they've already failed it. The book isn't closed on this yet. I don't know these guys personally or anything but hearing Brian Chesky talk about his company and his struggle, you can tell that these guys aren't assholes. Right now they're getting stupid, shitty, short-sighted advice from people who've convinced them to do the wrong things. I want to believe they'll turn it around. If they don't... well, as I said.
patrickod 15y ago
What would you have rather AirBnB done in this situation? Do you not think it's a little unreasonable that AirBnB would have to take on the role of the insurer here ? People should know the risks they're taking in letting a complete stranger into their house without even meeting in person. Just because someone found you through AirBnB doesn't mean you can take the risk for granted. You're still letting a complete stranger have access to your house and belongings.
- danilocampos 15y ago
  > What would you have rather AirBnB done in this situation? Make their user whole with a big fat wad of cash that approaches the value lost in the described crime. Relocation assistance. Go completely above and beyond. > Do you not think it's a little unreasonable that AirBnB would have to take on the role of the insurer here ? In general? Sure. Here? Absolutely not unreasonable. This is the absolute worst case scenario. The only way you top this is burning down a house and killing someone's dog. Airbnb did not plan for this and did not appropriately set expectations. What they did set expectations for was "an Ebay of spaces," a safe and orderly way to monetize your home. The victim here argued very persuasively that because you can't contact people before the transaction, the onus is on Airbnb to ensure that they aren't sociopaths who will destroy your home and steal your identity.
  - dredmorbius 15y ago
    No, the worst-case scenario would be that guest copies keys, returns, and rapes and kills the owner/occupant. Remember: once you've allowed physical access to your resources (computer, accounts, home, ...), all bets are off with regards to future security. AirBnB has a pretty intractable problem here. People aren't fundamentally vettable. It's an age-old problem. TSA, the HUAC, lie detectors, loyalty oaths, pledges, blood bonds, FICO scores, PGP webs of trust, are all attempts to solve that problem. We can identify, authenticate, predict, track, audit, and prosecute. We can't know the future.
    - danilocampos 15y ago
prostoalex 15y ago
Where do we draw the line on decency? * Guest trashes the place, takes off with host's camera, iPod, laptop, jewelry - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? * Guest scratches a hardwood floor that's pretty expensive to fix - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? Or just buy a rug to cover it? What if it's some Mongolian oak that's custom-ordered at $5000 per sq.ft.? * Guest overflows the toilet, causing some floor damage and a call to plumber - should AirBnb pay for just the floor? Or cover plumber's visit? * TV is not working on guest's departure, guest claims to never have touched it, owner says it worked perfectly before the guest arrived - should AirBnb just buy a new TV?
- danilocampos 15y ago
  I'm willing to go on record as saying the line is drawn at a sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity. It's pretty simple. If the user can't pre-screen and validate the guest's identity before renting, the onus is on Airbnb to ensure that they will not destroy your home. Besides, that's the only way this company can work at scale. Without trust in the system, who will use it?
  - prostoalex 15y ago
    There are databases for convicted felons and molesters, but other than that, how exactly do you ensure someone is not a "sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity"? Even if AirBnb had a way to check this guy out, it's quite possible he doesn't habitually destroy homes and steal people's identities.
    - danilocampos 15y ago
      > There are databases for convicted felons and molesters, but other than that, how exactly do you ensure someone is not a "sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity"? Dunno. That's going to be Airbnb's problem to solve if they want to enjoy ongoing business. That's their job if they want to be the "Ebay of spaces."
pavel_lishin 15y ago
> I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost. Do you care about your company continuing to exist for more than six months? If you ran AirBNB and paid out to this girl, you would probably be flooded with similar complaints and legal assaults. You'd feel great about the several people you helped, but then you'd be looking for a new job.
codyrobbins 15y ago
Give me a frigging break! I don't care what the long-term implications are Clearly you’re not a business person if you wouldn’t care what the long-term implications of your company’s response to this were. They have responsibilities to investors, employees, and other users—they’re (rightly) making a decision with those stakeholders in mind, not the woman who had her house ruined. I don't care about cost Again, clearly you’re not cut out to run a business if you don’t care about cost. If my business does this to someone I make it right. Airbnb didn’t do this to her. The people who did it to her did it to her. Airbnb provides a marketplace for these interactions to occur—nothing more. The users cannot abdicate their personal responsibility not to use the service carelessly. I mean, we’re talking about letting people into your home here. Is a car manufacturer liable when a driver runs over a jaywalker because they were texting on their phone? No. Is the phone manufacturer liable? No. Should I be sued when I recommend my accountant to my friend and the accountant defrauds him? No. Should Craigslist be liable if precisely the same thing happened through Craigslist? No. Anything less is simple villainy. This is a test of human decency. Calling this villainy is one of the most hyperbolic statements I’ve heard in living memory. So is declaring, as if it were agreed upon fact, that Airbnb is evil if they don’t reimburse her. If you are going to enjoy the rewards of your business, you have a moral obligation to ensure that you make things right when that business harms someone else. If your company actually does something to somebody, then sure—but not when you’re company doesn’t. Airbnb didn’t do anything to her: she let a stranger into her house for a week without thinking about it! I’m not blaming the victim, I’m blaming the people who did it to her—but I’m certainly not blaming the middleman. What happened to this girl sucks, but your post is overly emotional and absurd. It’s not Airbnb’s moral responsibility to do anything about this. They may choose to from a pragmatically-motivated customer relations, reputation, and corporate image standpoint—and sure, it would be an all-around charitable and nice thing to do—but I completely disagree with the claim that they have any moral responsibility to do so. Airbnb can do whatever they damn well please and what they believe is in the best interests of their business. What I think is indecent is creating an artificially high and illogical holier-than-thou moral high ground divorced from the realities of running a $1B business that you then use to drum up a public crucifixion of a company that doesn’t live up to said standard.
- danilocampos 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
chailatte 15y ago
Personally I don't know why people get a hard-on about the story of Airbnb. So they sold a fad product (cereal) at the right time to make a little bit of money. Just tells me they have no moral integrity (which explains the craigslist email spamming). So they struggled to make rent in SF a while. Who told them to stay in an expensive city with no savings? That's bad financial planning, and they could've bootstrapped their startup in Austin. Oh, and they made a startup that is illegal in many parts of US, and manage to dupe investors to give them hundreds of millions. Now they won't even help a girl whose life they help tear to shreds. Sounds like upstanding fellows to me.
- NathanKP 15y ago
  I really don't understand why people are laying blame on AirBNB for what happened to her. AirBNB did not help the criminal destroy her home. On what basis do you make the statement that they helped "tear her life to shreds."? The fact that they helped her list her home and conduct business with this individual? That is like blaming the ISP for allowing a DDOS or a malicious blackhat attack on a server.
kyro 15y ago
I'm sure they wouldn't employ someone who reacts in such a hot-headed manner so quickly. Keep in mind this is the first time this has happened to them, that they've probably never been placed in this sort of situation before, that they most likely exercised a bit of intelligence and consulted a handful of advisers, and that they are trying to take the wisest steps in handling this. I doubt they're that soulless and cold-hearted; and if you'd just waited a bit, you would've caught Brian's response explaining how he plans on helping her out financially. You're the one failing on human decency due to your inability to exercise even a shroud of empathy for these guys. They're trying to play it smart while still doing what they can to help.
danilocampos 15y ago
> Update (from Tech Crunch): I spoke with Brian Chesky. He says the company has offered “to assist financially, find new housing for the host, and anything else she can think of to make her life easier.” He says they intend to “go above and beyond” to make the situation right for her. Good man.

rokekr 15y ago

>This is "the guest you sent me destroyed my home and sense of safety." Not to mention the theft of personal documents and potential theft of identity. The (very real) potential of being bushwhacked by additional fraud years down the line due to this incident is pretty horrifying.

oldstrangers 15y ago

"This is a test of human decency. I hope they don't fail it." Technically, they've already failed it. Now they just have to admit that they failed, and actually fix the problem (financially). If this was my company, a "worst case scenario" money chest and an itemized plan-of-action would've been the first thing I created. Investors are protected (in a number of ways) from the financial risk of investing in Airbnb (or any company); the clients should have a similar expectation of security, considering that they're creating the value for investors.

danilocampos 15y ago
> Technically, they've already failed it. The book isn't closed on this yet. I don't know these guys personally or anything but hearing Brian Chesky talk about his company and his struggle, you can tell that these guys aren't assholes. Right now they're getting stupid, shitty, short-sighted advice from people who've convinced them to do the wrong things. I want to believe they'll turn it around. If they don't... well, as I said.

patrickod 15y ago

What would you have rather AirBnB done in this situation? Do you not think it's a little unreasonable that AirBnB would have to take on the role of the insurer here ? People should know the risks they're taking in letting a complete stranger into their house without even meeting in person. Just because someone found you through AirBnB doesn't mean you can take the risk for granted. You're still letting a complete stranger have access to your house and belongings.

danilocampos 15y ago
> What would you have rather AirBnB done in this situation? Make their user whole with a big fat wad of cash that approaches the value lost in the described crime. Relocation assistance. Go completely above and beyond. > Do you not think it's a little unreasonable that AirBnB would have to take on the role of the insurer here ? In general? Sure. Here? Absolutely not unreasonable. This is the absolute worst case scenario. The only way you top this is burning down a house and killing someone's dog. Airbnb did not plan for this and did not appropriately set expectations. What they did set expectations for was "an Ebay of spaces," a safe and orderly way to monetize your home. The victim here argued very persuasively that because you can't contact people before the transaction, the onus is on Airbnb to ensure that they aren't sociopaths who will destroy your home and steal your identity.
- dredmorbius 15y ago
  No, the worst-case scenario would be that guest copies keys, returns, and rapes and kills the owner/occupant. Remember: once you've allowed physical access to your resources (computer, accounts, home, ...), all bets are off with regards to future security. AirBnB has a pretty intractable problem here. People aren't fundamentally vettable. It's an age-old problem. TSA, the HUAC, lie detectors, loyalty oaths, pledges, blood bonds, FICO scores, PGP webs of trust, are all attempts to solve that problem. We can identify, authenticate, predict, track, audit, and prosecute. We can't know the future.
  - danilocampos 15y ago

prostoalex 15y ago

Where do we draw the line on decency? * Guest trashes the place, takes off with host's camera, iPod, laptop, jewelry - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? * Guest scratches a hardwood floor that's pretty expensive to fix - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? Or just buy a rug to cover it? What if it's some Mongolian oak that's custom-ordered at $5000 per sq.ft.? * Guest overflows the toilet, causing some floor damage and a call to plumber - should AirBnb pay for just the floor? Or cover plumber's visit? * TV is not working on guest's departure, guest claims to never have touched it, owner says it worked perfectly before the guest arrived - should AirBnb just buy a new TV?

danilocampos 15y ago
I'm willing to go on record as saying the line is drawn at a sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity. It's pretty simple. If the user can't pre-screen and validate the guest's identity before renting, the onus is on Airbnb to ensure that they will not destroy your home. Besides, that's the only way this company can work at scale. Without trust in the system, who will use it?
- prostoalex 15y ago
  There are databases for convicted felons and molesters, but other than that, how exactly do you ensure someone is not a "sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity"? Even if AirBnb had a way to check this guy out, it's quite possible he doesn't habitually destroy homes and steal people's identities.
  - danilocampos 15y ago
    > There are databases for convicted felons and molesters, but other than that, how exactly do you ensure someone is not a "sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity"? Dunno. That's going to be Airbnb's problem to solve if they want to enjoy ongoing business. That's their job if they want to be the "Ebay of spaces."

pavel_lishin 15y ago

> I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost. Do you care about your company continuing to exist for more than six months? If you ran AirBNB and paid out to this girl, you would probably be flooded with similar complaints and legal assaults. You'd feel great about the several people you helped, but then you'd be looking for a new job.

codyrobbins 15y ago

Give me a frigging break! I don't care what the long-term implications are Clearly you’re not a business person if you wouldn’t care what the long-term implications of your company’s response to this were. They have responsibilities to investors, employees, and other users—they’re (rightly) making a decision with those stakeholders in mind, not the woman who had her house ruined. I don't care about cost Again, clearly you’re not cut out to run a business if you don’t care about cost. If my business does this to someone I make it right. Airbnb didn’t do this to her. The people who did it to her did it to her. Airbnb provides a marketplace for these interactions to occur—nothing more. The users cannot abdicate their personal responsibility not to use the service carelessly. I mean, we’re talking about letting people into your home here. Is a car manufacturer liable when a driver runs over a jaywalker because they were texting on their phone? No. Is the phone manufacturer liable? No. Should I be sued when I recommend my accountant to my friend and the accountant defrauds him? No. Should Craigslist be liable if precisely the same thing happened through Craigslist? No. Anything less is simple villainy. This is a test of human decency. Calling this villainy is one of the most hyperbolic statements I’ve heard in living memory. So is declaring, as if it were agreed upon fact, that Airbnb is evil if they don’t reimburse her. If you are going to enjoy the rewards of your business, you have a moral obligation to ensure that you make things right when that business harms someone else. If your company actually does something to somebody, then sure—but not when you’re company doesn’t. Airbnb didn’t do anything to her: she let a stranger into her house for a week without thinking about it! I’m not blaming the victim, I’m blaming the people who did it to her—but I’m certainly not blaming the middleman. What happened to this girl sucks, but your post is overly emotional and absurd. It’s not Airbnb’s moral responsibility to do anything about this. They may choose to from a pragmatically-motivated customer relations, reputation, and corporate image standpoint—and sure, it would be an all-around charitable and nice thing to do—but I completely disagree with the claim that they have any moral responsibility to do so. Airbnb can do whatever they damn well please and what they believe is in the best interests of their business. What I think is indecent is creating an artificially high and illogical holier-than-thou moral high ground divorced from the realities of running a $1B business that you then use to drum up a public crucifixion of a company that doesn’t live up to said standard.

danilocampos 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

chailatte 15y ago

Personally I don't know why people get a hard-on about the story of Airbnb. So they sold a fad product (cereal) at the right time to make a little bit of money. Just tells me they have no moral integrity (which explains the craigslist email spamming). So they struggled to make rent in SF a while. Who told them to stay in an expensive city with no savings? That's bad financial planning, and they could've bootstrapped their startup in Austin. Oh, and they made a startup that is illegal in many parts of US, and manage to dupe investors to give them hundreds of millions. Now they won't even help a girl whose life they help tear to shreds. Sounds like upstanding fellows to me.

NathanKP 15y ago
I really don't understand why people are laying blame on AirBNB for what happened to her. AirBNB did not help the criminal destroy her home. On what basis do you make the statement that they helped "tear her life to shreds."? The fact that they helped her list her home and conduct business with this individual? That is like blaming the ISP for allowing a DDOS or a malicious blackhat attack on a server.

kyro 15y ago

I'm sure they wouldn't employ someone who reacts in such a hot-headed manner so quickly. Keep in mind this is the first time this has happened to them, that they've probably never been placed in this sort of situation before, that they most likely exercised a bit of intelligence and consulted a handful of advisers, and that they are trying to take the wisest steps in handling this. I doubt they're that soulless and cold-hearted; and if you'd just waited a bit, you would've caught Brian's response explaining how he plans on helping her out financially. You're the one failing on human decency due to your inability to exercise even a shroud of empathy for these guys. They're trying to play it smart while still doing what they can to help.

danilocampos 15y ago

> Update (from Tech Crunch): I spoke with Brian Chesky. He says the company has offered “to assist financially, find new housing for the host, and anything else she can think of to make her life easier.” He says they intend to “go above and beyond” to make the situation right for her. Good man.