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Skilled immigration is neocolonialism. I truly can't believe how many (supposedly enlightened) people I've had try to tell me with a straight face how wonderful

Skilled immigration is neocolonialism. I truly can't believe how many (supposedly enlightened) people I've had try to tell me with a straight face how wonderful it is to have all these doctors/engineers/etc coming to their country, and how great it is for their economy and healthcare system etc. Like, you don't think all the people in India or The Philippines or Chad need doctors or economic advancement?? It's just incredibly greedy and selfish. Can you imagine what a person who has just lost their child due to a preventable illness from being unable to see a doctor think when they hear some privileged person from an unimaginably wealthy country that already has an order of magnitude more doctors per capita and whose children will never see the suffering theirs routinely do -- boasting how wonderful it is that they are harvesting all the best healthcare workers from their country. Makes you shudder to think about it really. These same people will bemoan a corporation from their country going to another one to conduct a resource extraction business (exploitation!) and yet when it comes to their own interests, they are quite happy to take and exploit a less well off country's most valuable resource which is its human capital.

xyzzy123 5y ago
Is it neocolonialism, or is it more like letting people vote with their feet? In a perfect world, we'd all be able to choose where we live. Most of the people I talk to in Australia are more concerned about all the people that DON'T get let in. Another lens is that countries are in the business of providing defence, governance, economic opportunity and lifestyle services. Immigrants are customers.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Yes, yes it is neocolonialism. And it's easy to justify by saying "in a perfect world", but we don't live in a perfect world do we so that logic is just completely flawed. "In a perfect world we would do X" does not mean that doing X in the imperfect world we live in results in a better world. It is neocolonialism because it is extracting the most valuable and profitable resources of less well off countries for your own benefit. Sure they can't compete with the massive incentives offered by the uber wealthy countries. Probably because those wealthy countries have been exploiting their resources including human capital in the past which keeps them poor and dependent. But they should be thankful that their children get to sew shoes for us for a few cents a day.
  - xyzzy123 5y ago
    Let's take doctors as a specific example. Suppose we take the Phillipines and Malaysia, they (together) have about 6x the population of Australia. They have the capacity to train a lot of doctors - and a doctor can have a great life in either of those countries. They can both also produce doctors more efficiently than Australia, partly due to living costs / ppp and population size, and partly due to Baumol's disease hitting education costs harder in AU. But let's be honest, no country is talent-limited on doctor production. What's limited are training slots, and that is partly a practical concern... but also licensing restrictions - which tend to be regulated by doctors who have a strong interest in avoiding the oversupply of doctors. What I am trying to say with all this is that there are many reasons someone might not be getting good medical care in say, the Phillipines but those reasons are not primarily due to doctors emigrating.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      What you write doesn't refute the problem which is that countries like this generally have worse health outcomes, healthcare systems, they have fewer skilled workers to build their economies. Skimming their best resources off the top can't be justified by some dry economic formula (if it happens to be correct) that just by pure coincidence results in a worse outcome for that poorer country and a better outcome for the wealthier one. Colonialists had all sorts of economic arguments too.
      - xyzzy123 5y ago
        You might enjoy this article from a Malaysian doctor (ok, Cambridge educated but fine) who is arguing that Malaysia is over-producing doctors: https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/columnists/vital-signs/2019/11/06/how-many-doctors-does-malaysia-really-need https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/columnists/vital-signs/20... I would agree that the Phillipines are under-supplied according to OECD ratios but again, I don't think the problem is emigration. Personally I think your mental model of these countries is out-of-date. They are sophisticated and industrialised but do have high inequality and some governance problems. As usual, it's a distribution problem. I think you are under-estimating their capacity and they are not at all lacking in talent, education or human resources. Australia is lucky to get skilled migrants but is by no means "draining" them. I think I'd want to see a more quantitative argument before I was willing to accept that.
shell0x 5y ago
As an expat, I go there where I get treated best. Why wouldn’t I? Do I owe my country of birth anything?
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Are these rhetorical questions? I'm not quite sure how they address my comment. There is a difference between that and the systemic concerted efforts by wealthy countries to poach and take the most valuable, skilled, educated of the human capital from poorer countries who are in positions of weakness and far less bargaining power. I understand that the narrative is that it's about "helping the unfortunates", but really it's not. If a country wanted to help people you wouldn't "help" mainly the ones who can give them something (they are actually helping you), leaving the many more less fortunate ones in an even worse state.
  - shell0x 5y ago
    I understand what you mean, but it’s not exclusive to wealthy countries poaching people from developing countries either right. In Germany(already a wealthy country) doctors move to Switzerland for better pay and better working conditions too. It’s also very expensive to move internationally. Visas can cost up to $10,000 alone, so I doubt that so many people actually leave developing countries for developed ones. There are also tons of people who would never move countries because their family and social circle is in that particular place or they want to make their country a better place. I also think many people move back home from overseas to their home country, bringing their improved skillset with them.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      I didn't intend to imply that's the only situation where skilled migration occurs, but that is what I wrote so I should correct myself. When there is a relatively fair and level competition to compete for resources then there's less room for exploitative behavior of course. That applies not just to labor but really anywhere. I think you're rationalizing or painting yourself a reality that you wish was true. Brain drain from disadvantaged countries on an industrial scale is a serious problem. Not for the wealthy privileged countries who benefit of course, which is why nobody says much about it and those who do get attacked.
JohnWhigham 5y ago
People from less fortunate countries wanting to better themselves in more developed countries is somehow whitey's fault. I...wow. I never thought I would see such backwards retarded thinking on HN, but here we are.
SuoDuanDao 5y ago
If that's true, then neocolonialism is meaningless as a pejorative. I associate neocolonialism with economic hit men and predatory loans, not private citizens having the option to leave often abusive governments. By your definition, neocolonialism is simply the absence of serfdom.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  > If that's true, then neocolonialism is meaningless as a pejorative. I associate neocolonialism with economic hit men and predatory loans, Now that is meaningless. There are a whole vast range of ways to be exploitative and wealthy and powerful taking from poor and powerless. > not private citizens having the option to leave often abusive governments. I'm talking about the aggregate outcome for the people. The greater good. It's funny the disconnect some people have here between being so fast to denounce "individualism" greed, selfishness etc., in their own countries when they see it is a detriment to them. And yet they go completely the other way when it's a benefit to them and a detriment to people of other countries. That's the height of selfishness and hypocrisy as I see it. > By your definition, neocolonialism is simply the absence of serfdom. No it's not.
  - SuoDuanDao 5y ago
    yes, it is. Serfdom is when a peasant has no right to leave his lord's land. If neocolonialism includes recognition of the right to emigrate when another country wants to accept you as an immigrant, it's too broad a definition to be any kind of useful pejorative. The collective outcome may be bad for the country from which people emigrate, but the individual outcome is very good for the people who emigrate. And at a higher level of organisation, the importance of retaining one's best and brightest creates incentives for all governments to behave better than they would if it was accepted the people born in a country belonged to the rulers like some kind of global slavery system.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      I don't know what you want me to respond with, what you're writing is a strawman, it's not what I wrote anywhere.
lethologica 5y ago
Talk to some immigrants here in Australia and you’ll find that a lot don’t end up in the industry they were in from their home country. We have some pretty strict rules around qualifications for doctors, engineers etc and a lot of other countries educations doesn’t cut it for our standards. So most end up becoming taxi drivers or cleaners. When you speak with some of them, it’s almost tragic to have a talented individual unable to contribute to the field they’re qualified in. But no one forced them to come. No one forces them to stay. Is that still neocolonialism?
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Yes it is. I'm not saying some individual's story or an anecdote is neocolonialism. It's the entire system of siphoning resources from disadvantaged regions to wealthy ones.

xyzzy123 5y ago

Is it neocolonialism, or is it more like letting people vote with their feet? In a perfect world, we'd all be able to choose where we live. Most of the people I talk to in Australia are more concerned about all the people that DON'T get let in. Another lens is that countries are in the business of providing defence, governance, economic opportunity and lifestyle services. Immigrants are customers.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Yes, yes it is neocolonialism. And it's easy to justify by saying "in a perfect world", but we don't live in a perfect world do we so that logic is just completely flawed. "In a perfect world we would do X" does not mean that doing X in the imperfect world we live in results in a better world. It is neocolonialism because it is extracting the most valuable and profitable resources of less well off countries for your own benefit. Sure they can't compete with the massive incentives offered by the uber wealthy countries. Probably because those wealthy countries have been exploiting their resources including human capital in the past which keeps them poor and dependent. But they should be thankful that their children get to sew shoes for us for a few cents a day.
- xyzzy123 5y ago
  Let's take doctors as a specific example. Suppose we take the Phillipines and Malaysia, they (together) have about 6x the population of Australia. They have the capacity to train a lot of doctors - and a doctor can have a great life in either of those countries. They can both also produce doctors more efficiently than Australia, partly due to living costs / ppp and population size, and partly due to Baumol's disease hitting education costs harder in AU. But let's be honest, no country is talent-limited on doctor production. What's limited are training slots, and that is partly a practical concern... but also licensing restrictions - which tend to be regulated by doctors who have a strong interest in avoiding the oversupply of doctors. What I am trying to say with all this is that there are many reasons someone might not be getting good medical care in say, the Phillipines but those reasons are not primarily due to doctors emigrating.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    What you write doesn't refute the problem which is that countries like this generally have worse health outcomes, healthcare systems, they have fewer skilled workers to build their economies. Skimming their best resources off the top can't be justified by some dry economic formula (if it happens to be correct) that just by pure coincidence results in a worse outcome for that poorer country and a better outcome for the wealthier one. Colonialists had all sorts of economic arguments too.
    - xyzzy123 5y ago
      You might enjoy this article from a Malaysian doctor (ok, Cambridge educated but fine) who is arguing that Malaysia is over-producing doctors: https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/columnists/vital-signs/2019/11/06/how-many-doctors-does-malaysia-really-need https://www.thestar.com.my/opinion/columnists/vital-signs/20... I would agree that the Phillipines are under-supplied according to OECD ratios but again, I don't think the problem is emigration. Personally I think your mental model of these countries is out-of-date. They are sophisticated and industrialised but do have high inequality and some governance problems. As usual, it's a distribution problem. I think you are under-estimating their capacity and they are not at all lacking in talent, education or human resources. Australia is lucky to get skilled migrants but is by no means "draining" them. I think I'd want to see a more quantitative argument before I was willing to accept that.

shell0x 5y ago

As an expat, I go there where I get treated best. Why wouldn’t I? Do I owe my country of birth anything?

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Are these rhetorical questions? I'm not quite sure how they address my comment. There is a difference between that and the systemic concerted efforts by wealthy countries to poach and take the most valuable, skilled, educated of the human capital from poorer countries who are in positions of weakness and far less bargaining power. I understand that the narrative is that it's about "helping the unfortunates", but really it's not. If a country wanted to help people you wouldn't "help" mainly the ones who can give them something (they are actually helping you), leaving the many more less fortunate ones in an even worse state.
- shell0x 5y ago
  I understand what you mean, but it’s not exclusive to wealthy countries poaching people from developing countries either right. In Germany(already a wealthy country) doctors move to Switzerland for better pay and better working conditions too. It’s also very expensive to move internationally. Visas can cost up to $10,000 alone, so I doubt that so many people actually leave developing countries for developed ones. There are also tons of people who would never move countries because their family and social circle is in that particular place or they want to make their country a better place. I also think many people move back home from overseas to their home country, bringing their improved skillset with them.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    I didn't intend to imply that's the only situation where skilled migration occurs, but that is what I wrote so I should correct myself. When there is a relatively fair and level competition to compete for resources then there's less room for exploitative behavior of course. That applies not just to labor but really anywhere. I think you're rationalizing or painting yourself a reality that you wish was true. Brain drain from disadvantaged countries on an industrial scale is a serious problem. Not for the wealthy privileged countries who benefit of course, which is why nobody says much about it and those who do get attacked.

JohnWhigham 5y ago

People from less fortunate countries wanting to better themselves in more developed countries is somehow whitey's fault. I...wow. I never thought I would see such backwards retarded thinking on HN, but here we are.

SuoDuanDao 5y ago

If that's true, then neocolonialism is meaningless as a pejorative. I associate neocolonialism with economic hit men and predatory loans, not private citizens having the option to leave often abusive governments. By your definition, neocolonialism is simply the absence of serfdom.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
> If that's true, then neocolonialism is meaningless as a pejorative. I associate neocolonialism with economic hit men and predatory loans, Now that is meaningless. There are a whole vast range of ways to be exploitative and wealthy and powerful taking from poor and powerless. > not private citizens having the option to leave often abusive governments. I'm talking about the aggregate outcome for the people. The greater good. It's funny the disconnect some people have here between being so fast to denounce "individualism" greed, selfishness etc., in their own countries when they see it is a detriment to them. And yet they go completely the other way when it's a benefit to them and a detriment to people of other countries. That's the height of selfishness and hypocrisy as I see it. > By your definition, neocolonialism is simply the absence of serfdom. No it's not.
- SuoDuanDao 5y ago
  yes, it is. Serfdom is when a peasant has no right to leave his lord's land. If neocolonialism includes recognition of the right to emigrate when another country wants to accept you as an immigrant, it's too broad a definition to be any kind of useful pejorative. The collective outcome may be bad for the country from which people emigrate, but the individual outcome is very good for the people who emigrate. And at a higher level of organisation, the importance of retaining one's best and brightest creates incentives for all governments to behave better than they would if it was accepted the people born in a country belonged to the rulers like some kind of global slavery system.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    I don't know what you want me to respond with, what you're writing is a strawman, it's not what I wrote anywhere.

lethologica 5y ago

Talk to some immigrants here in Australia and you’ll find that a lot don’t end up in the industry they were in from their home country. We have some pretty strict rules around qualifications for doctors, engineers etc and a lot of other countries educations doesn’t cut it for our standards. So most end up becoming taxi drivers or cleaners. When you speak with some of them, it’s almost tragic to have a talented individual unable to contribute to the field they’re qualified in. But no one forced them to come. No one forces them to stay. Is that still neocolonialism?

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Yes it is. I'm not saying some individual's story or an anecdote is neocolonialism. It's the entire system of siphoning resources from disadvantaged regions to wealthy ones.