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I start seeing a pattern in Western societies: The pendulum swings between "for" and "against" mass surveillance with a period of a decade. 2001: Terroist atta

I start seeing a pattern in Western societies: The pendulum swings between "for" and "against" mass surveillance with a period of a decade. 2001: Terroist attack, swing towards mass surveillance. 2010: Gov't went too far, surveillance seen as a greater threat than terrorism, swing pendulum back to privacy. 2021: Gang violence increases in Europe, swing pendulum to mass surveillance. Can anyone guess what will happen 2030?

contravariant 5y ago
I think you're being very generous by considering anything that happened in the past 10 years a swing towards greater privacy. Sure the EU gave FAANG a slap on the wrist, but I know of now government that rolled back the increased surveillance that terrorist legislation gave them.
- hulitu 5y ago
  Also, as of today, GDPR is not enforced so privacy is more theoretical.
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    False. https://enforcementtracker.com https://enforcementtracker.com
    - snthd 5y ago
      There is some enforcement, but the GDPR is widely flouted, most conspicuously with the cookie "consent" banners - they're supposed to give equal choices (to meet the standard of informed consent and not "consent bundling") but they're riddled with dark patterns. Then there's the Irish who "oversee" Facebook and Google and do SFA. So the GDPR is not enforced [to a level anywhere near what the legislation is supposed to do].
      - motives 5y ago
        If I understand it correctly, the recent CJEU ruling on GDPR [0] should improve the Irish DPC limitations by allowing enforcement in other member states where violations have occurred (under certain specific conditions). [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-eu-court-says-national-watchdogs-may-act-against-violations-blow-facebook-2021-06-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-eu-court-says-natio...
    - sebow 5y ago
      So, since 2018 in the entire EU there have been _only_ 800, let's say 1k such violations? Yeah.. GDPR works >assuming< everyone reports every violation of privacy, which is absurd to believe it would be the case.
    - bmn__ 5y ago
      User sebow, your account is shadow-banned since 2017. I am unable to reply directly. (HN readers, enable "showdead" in your profile page to see what's going on.) > in the entire EU there have been _only_ 800, let's say 1k such violations? No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Not all violations with fines/punishment are made public, and a vast majority of non-egregious violations will not result in a fine/punishment in the first place because the competent DPA will send a letter outlining what's wrong, how to fix it, and what the consequences will be if it's not fixed. Those transgressors will simply very quickly come into compliance to avoid the trouble and the affair will not be made public.
      - account42 5y ago
        > I am unable to reply directly. If you go to the comment's page [0] you can click "vouch" to reincarnate the comment if you believe it should be part of the discussion. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28140345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28140345
        bmn__ 5y ago
        This does not always work. In this case, it did not help.
        haneefmubarak 5y ago
        I vouched too, the comment seemed like it was attempting to participate in good faith in the conversation. Looks like it's live now :)
logifail 5y ago
> 2010: Gov't went too far, surveillance seen as a greater threat than terrorism, swing pendulum back to privacy Did something happen in 2010 that reduced surveillance and strengthened privacy rights? If so, I think I may have missed it.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  Yeah it's an odd claim since the Snowden revalations came out in IIRC 2011 and the government viciously attacked him in the press as they built a massive data center for surveillance on a scale never seen in history. The programs that Snowden exposed never got ended, no laws were ever passed preventing them from happening. All we got was some encrypted chat apps and I think it would be naive to believe the government can't read and search any facebook chat it wants, for example. Others are pointing out the 2021 "Gang violence in Europe" claim doesn't make sense either soo...
- anticristi 5y ago
  I specifically refer to these two events: Post 2010: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_global_surveillance_disclosures https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_global_surveill... Which culminated in: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regu... Post 2021: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM At least in Sweden, there is ongoing discussion to legislate Police mass surveillance capability at the expense of individual freedom.
yosamino 5y ago
> 2021: Gang violence increases in Europe, What are you referring to here?
- mads 5y ago
  I am not aware that gang violence should be a particular big problem here. Especially not such that it should require mass surveillance....
- anticristi 5y ago
  I'm referring to ANOM here. Swedish police used FBI-provided data to arrest 155 indiviuals. Weirdly, the Swedish police cannot collect such data themselves, but need to act if they "stubble" across information indicating imminent crime.
mrtksn 5y ago
Traveling, communication, rights - everything is a degraded experience because of 9/11 and the governments have made it a habit. Obviously, Terrorists have won. I don't know how aware the American public is, but Afghanistan is being overrun by Taliban as we speak, causing another refugee crisis in Turkey that could easily spill into the continental Europe and the UK. Just before the pandemic, the Turkish govt was blackmailing EU with letting the refugees go wherever they want, you can expect this to repeat as the Turkish public is overwhelmingly against(polls show %80 want the refugees go) hosting refugees as many as %10 of its population. EU almost went bust with only 1M, Turkey alone hosts 5M to 8M at the moment and the Afghans are arriving in thousands everyday. You can expect the governments to try to manage the situation by increasing their toolset. You can expect increased surveillance and decreased rights trend to continue. You can expect people with different aspirations to try to take advantage of it.
- sharken 5y ago
  EU should not allow migrants, it should be the Arab countries that should take them. Swedish cities are now plagued by massive problems due to the large influx of migrants. Another wave would destroy any hope of returning to normality in Sweden.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>EU should not allow migrants, it should be the Arab countries that should take them. Even though it's the EU countries that have contributed to the plight of people in places like Afganistan and Syria? That's super convenient point of view - very nice way to wash your hands of any responsibility. And I'm saying this as an EU citizen - every country, including my own, that has participated in military excurisions in the middle east in the last 30 years has created this crisis for themselves. Saying that "oh, arab countries should take them" is beyond brutal, it's barbaric.
    - sharken 5y ago
      EU simply cannot absorb that many new migrants, that's the truth of it.
keewee7 5y ago
>2021: Gang violence increases in Europe, swing pendulum to mass surveillance. Many Western Europeans on HN and reddit will deny this problem even though it is an actual problem and unfortunately our governments are already using it as an excuse for mass surveillance. Military SIGINT planes flying over Copenhagen in 2017 to stop gang shootings should have triggered global outrage about mass surveillance: https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/politiet-tager-nye-vaaben-i-brug-mod-banderne-vi-goer-fund-og-fangster-fordi-vi https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/politiet-tager-nye-vaaben-...
jacquesm 5y ago
> Gang violence increases in Europe Did I miss something?
- anticristi 5y ago
  I should have written "public perception of police not being sufficiently equipped to tackle gang violence increases". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That's mostly a result of the police Europe wide operating on a smaller budget today than ever before.
Bellamy 5y ago
Thank you for this. We are heading the road of China and Russia where people try to get out because they don't want to live there anymore. No place for privacy or diverse opinions.

contravariant 5y ago

I think you're being very generous by considering anything that happened in the past 10 years a swing towards greater privacy. Sure the EU gave FAANG a slap on the wrist, but I know of now government that rolled back the increased surveillance that terrorist legislation gave them.

hulitu 5y ago
Also, as of today, GDPR is not enforced so privacy is more theoretical.
- bmn__ 5y ago
  False. https://enforcementtracker.com https://enforcementtracker.com
  - snthd 5y ago
    There is some enforcement, but the GDPR is widely flouted, most conspicuously with the cookie "consent" banners - they're supposed to give equal choices (to meet the standard of informed consent and not "consent bundling") but they're riddled with dark patterns. Then there's the Irish who "oversee" Facebook and Google and do SFA. So the GDPR is not enforced [to a level anywhere near what the legislation is supposed to do].
    - motives 5y ago
      If I understand it correctly, the recent CJEU ruling on GDPR [0] should improve the Irish DPC limitations by allowing enforcement in other member states where violations have occurred (under certain specific conditions). [0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-eu-court-says-national-watchdogs-may-act-against-violations-blow-facebook-2021-06-15/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/top-eu-court-says-natio...
  - sebow 5y ago
    So, since 2018 in the entire EU there have been _only_ 800, let's say 1k such violations? Yeah.. GDPR works >assuming< everyone reports every violation of privacy, which is absurd to believe it would be the case.
  - bmn__ 5y ago
    User sebow, your account is shadow-banned since 2017. I am unable to reply directly. (HN readers, enable "showdead" in your profile page to see what's going on.) > in the entire EU there have been _only_ 800, let's say 1k such violations? No, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Not all violations with fines/punishment are made public, and a vast majority of non-egregious violations will not result in a fine/punishment in the first place because the competent DPA will send a letter outlining what's wrong, how to fix it, and what the consequences will be if it's not fixed. Those transgressors will simply very quickly come into compliance to avoid the trouble and the affair will not be made public.
    - account42 5y ago
      > I am unable to reply directly. If you go to the comment's page [0] you can click "vouch" to reincarnate the comment if you believe it should be part of the discussion. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28140345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28140345
      - bmn__ 5y ago
        This does not always work. In this case, it did not help.
        haneefmubarak 5y ago
        I vouched too, the comment seemed like it was attempting to participate in good faith in the conversation. Looks like it's live now :)

logifail 5y ago

> 2010: Gov't went too far, surveillance seen as a greater threat than terrorism, swing pendulum back to privacy Did something happen in 2010 that reduced surveillance and strengthened privacy rights? If so, I think I may have missed it.

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
Yeah it's an odd claim since the Snowden revalations came out in IIRC 2011 and the government viciously attacked him in the press as they built a massive data center for surveillance on a scale never seen in history. The programs that Snowden exposed never got ended, no laws were ever passed preventing them from happening. All we got was some encrypted chat apps and I think it would be naive to believe the government can't read and search any facebook chat it wants, for example. Others are pointing out the 2021 "Gang violence in Europe" claim doesn't make sense either soo...
anticristi 5y ago
I specifically refer to these two events: Post 2010: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_global_surveillance_disclosures https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_global_surveill... Which culminated in: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regu... Post 2021: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM At least in Sweden, there is ongoing discussion to legislate Police mass surveillance capability at the expense of individual freedom.

yosamino 5y ago

> 2021: Gang violence increases in Europe, What are you referring to here?

mads 5y ago
I am not aware that gang violence should be a particular big problem here. Especially not such that it should require mass surveillance....
anticristi 5y ago
I'm referring to ANOM here. Swedish police used FBI-provided data to arrest 155 indiviuals. Weirdly, the Swedish police cannot collect such data themselves, but need to act if they "stubble" across information indicating imminent crime.

mrtksn 5y ago

Traveling, communication, rights - everything is a degraded experience because of 9/11 and the governments have made it a habit. Obviously, Terrorists have won. I don't know how aware the American public is, but Afghanistan is being overrun by Taliban as we speak, causing another refugee crisis in Turkey that could easily spill into the continental Europe and the UK. Just before the pandemic, the Turkish govt was blackmailing EU with letting the refugees go wherever they want, you can expect this to repeat as the Turkish public is overwhelmingly against(polls show %80 want the refugees go) hosting refugees as many as %10 of its population. EU almost went bust with only 1M, Turkey alone hosts 5M to 8M at the moment and the Afghans are arriving in thousands everyday. You can expect the governments to try to manage the situation by increasing their toolset. You can expect increased surveillance and decreased rights trend to continue. You can expect people with different aspirations to try to take advantage of it.

sharken 5y ago
EU should not allow migrants, it should be the Arab countries that should take them. Swedish cities are now plagued by massive problems due to the large influx of migrants. Another wave would destroy any hope of returning to normality in Sweden.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>EU should not allow migrants, it should be the Arab countries that should take them. Even though it's the EU countries that have contributed to the plight of people in places like Afganistan and Syria? That's super convenient point of view - very nice way to wash your hands of any responsibility. And I'm saying this as an EU citizen - every country, including my own, that has participated in military excurisions in the middle east in the last 30 years has created this crisis for themselves. Saying that "oh, arab countries should take them" is beyond brutal, it's barbaric.
  - sharken 5y ago
    EU simply cannot absorb that many new migrants, that's the truth of it.

keewee7 5y ago

>2021: Gang violence increases in Europe, swing pendulum to mass surveillance. Many Western Europeans on HN and reddit will deny this problem even though it is an actual problem and unfortunately our governments are already using it as an excuse for mass surveillance. Military SIGINT planes flying over Copenhagen in 2017 to stop gang shootings should have triggered global outrage about mass surveillance: https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/politiet-tager-nye-vaaben-i-brug-mod-banderne-vi-goer-fund-og-fangster-fordi-vi https://www.berlingske.dk/samfund/politiet-tager-nye-vaaben-...

jacquesm 5y ago

> Gang violence increases in Europe Did I miss something?

anticristi 5y ago
I should have written "public perception of police not being sufficiently equipped to tackle gang violence increases". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANOM
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's mostly a result of the police Europe wide operating on a smaller budget today than ever before.

Bellamy 5y ago

Thank you for this. We are heading the road of China and Russia where people try to get out because they don't want to live there anymore. No place for privacy or diverse opinions.