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Unfortunately we're all becoming surveillance states :( So many European countries are now requiring people to ID themselves and get a QR code scanned at every

Unfortunately we're all becoming surveillance states :( So many European countries are now requiring people to ID themselves and get a QR code scanned at every shop, every restaurant, every public transport journey. All combining to a detailed digital record of who has been where. Under the guise of protecting against COVID but who says this will disappear once the pandemic is over? I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary (after all, vaccination is enough to get access). We're giving up a lot of privacy all of a sudden without any serious debate. The alternative (getting tested every 2 days) is not viable anyway so eventually everyone will get it. IMO we should just make it mandatory now and skip the privacy invasion. Give the people who refuse anyway a fine and leave it at that (there will be so few left not to be an issue). I'm not in favour of forcing it. I'm surprised Australia is still so worried about terrorism though. It never really had an issue with it in the first place and it's no longer the monster of the week.

jjgreen 5y ago
I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary. How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state?
- agilob 5y ago
  >How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state? Develop a more deadly virus?
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  These vaccination records are there already anyway, in Europe most countries have a national health system that knows exactly who has it and who doesn't. But it's not as bad as a detailed step by step log of every person's activities every day. Also, I think some level of noncompliance should be accepted. The vaccines don't work 100% anyway, these are just a few more percent. The number of people opposed to vaccination in Europe is very low compared to the US. The vaccination rate will be more than high enough for decent protection. We're never going to reduce the risk of covid to zero for an individual. Just like we're never going to reduce the risk of dying from cancer to zero. Some risk just has to be accepted as a fact of life.
  - jjgreen 5y ago
    These vaccination records are there already anyway They are, in the UK attached to you NHS number for example. But the question is, how you you force the non-compliant to comply? Form the set-difference of the NHS and national DBs, hunt down and inject the non-compliant? Sounds a bit police-statey to me. Or make daily life dependent on showing your NHS number? Easy to fake, so we'd need NHS photo id-cards to get a coffee, ... sounds a bit police-statey to me ... etc
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      > Or make daily life dependent on showing your NHS number? Easy to fake, so we'd need NHS photo id-cards to get a coffee, ... sounds a bit police-statey to me ... etc Exactly, yet this is exactly what Germany, France and Italy are doing right now. You need the QR code which contains your name / DOB + Photo ID
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - avh02 5y ago
        Officially, they don't need your PII to validate your certificate: "The personal data of the certificate holder does not pass through the gateway, as this is not necessary to verify the digital signature" [1] That said, I've not actually looked in to how these work... In Berlin at least, it's rare to get an ID check at a restaurant, usually someone just glances at your phone. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-re... edit: further: "The CovPassCheck app processes the QR code only in the working memory of the smartphone and does not store any data." [2] [2] https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.apps.public.bfarm.de/en/covpasscheck-app https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.apps.public.bfarm.de/en/c...
djbebs 5y ago
You identified the problem, but confused the solution. Simply don't have police state totalitarian mandates.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  no OP is actually not wrong. One of the reasons why you have these sideways mission creep of surveillance in a lot of countries is because the government simply does not have the strength to effectively take care of problems right then and there. It's a sign of governments being too weak, not too strong. "Simply don't have xy" doesn't work when the problem is actually real. The population will always choose safety or public health over some sort of libertarian daydream.
b3n 5y ago
> and get a QR code scanned at every shop, every restaurant How does this work for those who don't own a smartphone?
- Accacin 5y ago
  Here in the UK you do not need to scan, you can just write down your phone number and name. It's a legal requirement for the information to be accurate though, I think.
  - jjgreen 5y ago
    I believe that it is (rather, was) your "contact details", not everyone has a phone; and I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for giving false details
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  You can print the QR code too.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Why the -1? :) The EU CoronaCheck used in most countries here was explicitly designed so it can be printed, for those without smartphones or not willing to use the app. And most countries that enforce this are in the EU.
- shric 5y ago
  They'll provide a sheet of paper. For some reason since covid I always forget to bring my phone when going out in Australia
  - jim-jim-jim 5y ago
    I've had good luck asking for paper in Victoria. In Queensland I've just been told to use the app or fuck off.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
mandmandam 5y ago
> I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary If every last man woman and child on the planet get vaccinated; if every mouse, cat, dog, ferret, pig, monkey and deer get vaccinated too, the potential for a breakout vaccine resistant infection is still there. Also, there is still virtually zero talk of implementing vaccine exemptions for people with naturally acquired immunity, which seems superior in every way. So, this isn't about "accommodating" the non vaccinated. It's not about safety, or science. It seems to be completely about control, complete control. My country hasn't hired more nurses, built more ICU beds, legislated for or supported better air circulation indoors, or subsidised antigen testing - but they have implemented a vaccine passport for cafes and restaurants, against the advice of our council on civil liberties, our data privacy chief, and the WHO covid envoy. We're told it's a temporary measure, and I have no doubt that it will be as "temporary" as the Patriot Act.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  > My country hasn't hired more nurses, built more ICU beds, legislated for or supported better air circulation indoors, or subsidised antigen testing - but they have implemented a vaccine passport for cafes and restaurants, against the advice of our council on civil liberties, our data privacy chief, and the WHO covid envoy. We're told it's a temporary measure, and I have no doubt that it will be as "temporary" as the Patriot Act. Yeah this is what bothers me too. We're bound to see some more waves and continued pressure on the health system for a long time to come yet nothing seems to be done to actually fix that. When Covid first hid the excuse was "we can't ramp up that quickly" but now that it's here to stay that excuse is still there. But every week they wait makes the wait even longer. I agree natural immunity is good too. It's automatically adaptive to new variants (and the vaccine can help there as it'll be much less risky to get covid so everyone gets exposed to it a bit). What I said about accomodating the unvaccinated, this was mainly because the government presents it as such. "We can't force vaccination so we have to check everyone every time". So many basic rights thrown in the trash without any debate. I agree there's probably ulterior motives. And I know it likely won't go away, this is why I'm so strongly against. I think in the long term I will move to a country that doesn't do this. I've already been moving around all my life.
thr0w72594 5y ago
The scanning already isn't necessary. What makes you think everyone getting vaccinated would cut back on government surveillance? You would just have to check in with your vaccine passport to prove that you can enter rather than check in for contact tracing; exact same problem either way. The "threat of terrorism" has long been used by media and governments in a cynical way to demonize specific groups. The most common act of terrorism in Western countries in the past few years has been arson of historical churches, yet we almost never see mainstream reporting. On the other hand, we are constantly told of the "[insert group] terror threat" that turns up no actual terrorist acts.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  > You would just have to check in with your vaccine passport to prove that you can enter rather than check in for contact tracing; exact same problem either way. The QR code is the vaccine passport. The test with the 2-day validity is simply another way to get it temporarily. And if everyone is vaccinated, why do we still need to do contact tracing? The idea was that it doesn't have enough hosts to reach R > 1 so it'll fizzle out anyway.
  - makomk 5y ago
    It is not possible to reduce R below 1 through vaccination alone with the current vaccines and the current Delta variant. The press has had a tendency to downplay or even outright lie about this, especially in countries with lower vaccine uptakes where it's politically convenient, but the British press and medical experts seem to be a bit more upfront with this now that 75% of adults are fully vaccinated and almost 90% have had at least one shot: https://www.politico.eu/article/herd-immunity-not-a-possibility-with-delta-variant/ https://www.politico.eu/article/herd-immunity-not-a-possibil... (This is about the goal countries like Australia and South Korea have been pointing to as the point where they can start rolling back restrictions.)
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      But what about the current vaccines + Delta + some minor measures? This is what works in most EU countries now. I'd much rather deal with some minor distancing instead of having to ID myself everywhere I go. Also, most people in the UK have been vaccinated with AstraZeneca which is much less effective (and this Pollard guy has a huge commercial interest in that so this won't factor into his story)

jjgreen 5y ago

I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary. How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state?

agilob 5y ago
>How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state? Develop a more deadly virus?
GekkePrutser 5y ago
These vaccination records are there already anyway, in Europe most countries have a national health system that knows exactly who has it and who doesn't. But it's not as bad as a detailed step by step log of every person's activities every day. Also, I think some level of noncompliance should be accepted. The vaccines don't work 100% anyway, these are just a few more percent. The number of people opposed to vaccination in Europe is very low compared to the US. The vaccination rate will be more than high enough for decent protection. We're never going to reduce the risk of covid to zero for an individual. Just like we're never going to reduce the risk of dying from cancer to zero. Some risk just has to be accepted as a fact of life.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  These vaccination records are there already anyway They are, in the UK attached to you NHS number for example. But the question is, how you you force the non-compliant to comply? Form the set-difference of the NHS and national DBs, hunt down and inject the non-compliant? Sounds a bit police-statey to me. Or make daily life dependent on showing your NHS number? Easy to fake, so we'd need NHS photo id-cards to get a coffee, ... sounds a bit police-statey to me ... etc
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    > Or make daily life dependent on showing your NHS number? Easy to fake, so we'd need NHS photo id-cards to get a coffee, ... sounds a bit police-statey to me ... etc Exactly, yet this is exactly what Germany, France and Italy are doing right now. You need the QR code which contains your name / DOB + Photo ID
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - avh02 5y ago
      Officially, they don't need your PII to validate your certificate: "The personal data of the certificate holder does not pass through the gateway, as this is not necessary to verify the digital signature" [1] That said, I've not actually looked in to how these work... In Berlin at least, it's rare to get an ID check at a restaurant, usually someone just glances at your phone. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-re... edit: further: "The CovPassCheck app processes the QR code only in the working memory of the smartphone and does not store any data." [2] [2] https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.apps.public.bfarm.de/en/covpasscheck-app https://digitaler-impfnachweis-app.apps.public.bfarm.de/en/c...

djbebs 5y ago

You identified the problem, but confused the solution. Simply don't have police state totalitarian mandates.

Barrin92 5y ago
no OP is actually not wrong. One of the reasons why you have these sideways mission creep of surveillance in a lot of countries is because the government simply does not have the strength to effectively take care of problems right then and there. It's a sign of governments being too weak, not too strong. "Simply don't have xy" doesn't work when the problem is actually real. The population will always choose safety or public health over some sort of libertarian daydream.

b3n 5y ago

> and get a QR code scanned at every shop, every restaurant How does this work for those who don't own a smartphone?

Accacin 5y ago
Here in the UK you do not need to scan, you can just write down your phone number and name. It's a legal requirement for the information to be accurate though, I think.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  I believe that it is (rather, was) your "contact details", not everyone has a phone; and I've never heard of anyone being prosecuted for giving false details
GekkePrutser 5y ago
You can print the QR code too.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Why the -1? :) The EU CoronaCheck used in most countries here was explicitly designed so it can be printed, for those without smartphones or not willing to use the app. And most countries that enforce this are in the EU.
shric 5y ago
They'll provide a sheet of paper. For some reason since covid I always forget to bring my phone when going out in Australia
- jim-jim-jim 5y ago
  I've had good luck asking for paper in Victoria. In Queensland I've just been told to use the app or fuck off.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago

mandmandam 5y ago

> I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary If every last man woman and child on the planet get vaccinated; if every mouse, cat, dog, ferret, pig, monkey and deer get vaccinated too, the potential for a breakout vaccine resistant infection is still there. Also, there is still virtually zero talk of implementing vaccine exemptions for people with naturally acquired immunity, which seems superior in every way. So, this isn't about "accommodating" the non vaccinated. It's not about safety, or science. It seems to be completely about control, complete control. My country hasn't hired more nurses, built more ICU beds, legislated for or supported better air circulation indoors, or subsidised antigen testing - but they have implemented a vaccine passport for cafes and restaurants, against the advice of our council on civil liberties, our data privacy chief, and the WHO covid envoy. We're told it's a temporary measure, and I have no doubt that it will be as "temporary" as the Patriot Act.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
> My country hasn't hired more nurses, built more ICU beds, legislated for or supported better air circulation indoors, or subsidised antigen testing - but they have implemented a vaccine passport for cafes and restaurants, against the advice of our council on civil liberties, our data privacy chief, and the WHO covid envoy. We're told it's a temporary measure, and I have no doubt that it will be as "temporary" as the Patriot Act. Yeah this is what bothers me too. We're bound to see some more waves and continued pressure on the health system for a long time to come yet nothing seems to be done to actually fix that. When Covid first hid the excuse was "we can't ramp up that quickly" but now that it's here to stay that excuse is still there. But every week they wait makes the wait even longer. I agree natural immunity is good too. It's automatically adaptive to new variants (and the vaccine can help there as it'll be much less risky to get covid so everyone gets exposed to it a bit). What I said about accomodating the unvaccinated, this was mainly because the government presents it as such. "We can't force vaccination so we have to check everyone every time". So many basic rights thrown in the trash without any debate. I agree there's probably ulterior motives. And I know it likely won't go away, this is why I'm so strongly against. I think in the long term I will move to a country that doesn't do this. I've already been moving around all my life.

thr0w72594 5y ago

The scanning already isn't necessary. What makes you think everyone getting vaccinated would cut back on government surveillance? You would just have to check in with your vaccine passport to prove that you can enter rather than check in for contact tracing; exact same problem either way. The "threat of terrorism" has long been used by media and governments in a cynical way to demonize specific groups. The most common act of terrorism in Western countries in the past few years has been arson of historical churches, yet we almost never see mainstream reporting. On the other hand, we are constantly told of the "[insert group] terror threat" that turns up no actual terrorist acts.

GekkePrutser 5y ago
> You would just have to check in with your vaccine passport to prove that you can enter rather than check in for contact tracing; exact same problem either way. The QR code is the vaccine passport. The test with the 2-day validity is simply another way to get it temporarily. And if everyone is vaccinated, why do we still need to do contact tracing? The idea was that it doesn't have enough hosts to reach R > 1 so it'll fizzle out anyway.
- makomk 5y ago
  It is not possible to reduce R below 1 through vaccination alone with the current vaccines and the current Delta variant. The press has had a tendency to downplay or even outright lie about this, especially in countries with lower vaccine uptakes where it's politically convenient, but the British press and medical experts seem to be a bit more upfront with this now that 75% of adults are fully vaccinated and almost 90% have had at least one shot: https://www.politico.eu/article/herd-immunity-not-a-possibility-with-delta-variant/ https://www.politico.eu/article/herd-immunity-not-a-possibil... (This is about the goal countries like Australia and South Korea have been pointing to as the point where they can start rolling back restrictions.)
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    But what about the current vaccines + Delta + some minor measures? This is what works in most EU countries now. I'd much rather deal with some minor distancing instead of having to ID myself everywhere I go. Also, most people in the UK have been vaccinated with AstraZeneca which is much less effective (and this Pollard guy has a huge commercial interest in that so this won't factor into his story)