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We conclude that the virus becomes more contagious as it is screened through the vaccinated population and the resultant strain becomes the dominant strain and

We conclude that the virus becomes more contagious as it is screened through the vaccinated population and the resultant strain becomes the dominant strain and able to infect the entire population. We recommend that: 1) universal vaccination should be administered as soon as possible to suppress the generation of virulent mutations; Wait, I’m being punked.. right? How is universal vaccination the solution, if it is literally the cause of the more contagious strain? The logic is a bit circular, no?

criticaltinker 5y ago
> The logic is a bit circular, no? Yeah the paper is littered with these kinds of gaps in reasoning, see my other comment for a more detailed critique.
xenophonf 5y ago
Universal vaccination is how you kill it completely, like we did with smallpox and almost did with polio.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  Nope. The virus can already spread among vaccinated.
  - 0-_-0 5y ago
    No, not all of them
  - smorgusofborg 5y ago
    The OP alleges it can't sufficiently mutate among the vaccinated, so their recommendation of full vaccination to eliminate the virus is perfectly consistent. Opening up and letting everyone get delta, vaccinated or not, is going to happen sooner and is not good because passing through the unvaccinated will cause many new mutations some of which might start new waves.
    - didjathinkmess 5y ago
      That's not at all what the paper says. >The OP alleges it can't sufficiently mutate among the vaccinated, so their recommendation of full vaccination to eliminate the virus is perfectly consistent. From the study: "We conclude that the virus becomes more contagious as it is screened through the vaccinated population and the resultant strain becomes the dominant strain and able to infect the entire population." The main takeaway from the paper is that the vaccinated are driving new variants. >Opening up and letting everyone get delta, vaccinated or not, is going to happen sooner and is not good because passing through the unvaccinated will cause many new mutations some of which might start new waves. Again, the paper states the vaccinated are driving new mutations. Technically due to natural immunity, the unvaccinated who have been previously infected are now in a better position than the vaccinated. They don't contract, get sick or spread whereas the vaccinated do. The big exception is unvaccinated who have never been infected by this coronavirus or any other past coronavirus. They are still susceptible to infection, spread, etc.
      - smorgusofborg 5y ago
        > The main takeaway from the paper is that the vaccinated are driving new variants. Filtering is the takeaway, one dominant strain and orders of magnitude less variations since most variation is not viable in a vaccinated public. If we have a highly variable virus that never goes away. That is the flu.
- artificial 5y ago
  This is next level as neither of those had animal reservoirs.
- justwanttolearn 5y ago
  On Polio "The fact that the virus can only survive in humans (and no other animals) makes it possible to completely eradicate the disease from the world – if it was a virus with an animal host such as influenza (birds) or tuberculosis (cows) that occasionally mutates to attack humans, polio could only ever be controlled but not eradicated." Covid transmits in animals. CDC says based on current data, transmission to human is low (but not impossible) but more studies are needed. The fact they can get it is already not on the same scale as smallpox or polio. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/...
netizen-936824 5y ago
In what way did vaccines directly cause the virus to mutate to the Delta variant?
titzer 5y ago
It seems counterintuitive at first, but the logic is sound. More infections = more mutations. More time = more mutations. By having a significant proportion of unvaccinated people keeping the pandemic going, juxtaposed with a large, maybe even majority of people vaccinated, it confers an evolutionary advantage to any mutation that crosses from unvaccinated to vaccinated. A rapid increase in vaccination is needed to stamp out the infection before it can mutate. A slow burn is a worst case scenario, as it just keeps the door open for the shit to keep escaping.
- penultimatebro 5y ago
  The vaccinated shed mutations - it’s the conclusion of the paper. They are the petri dishes of which new vaccine derived mutations spawn. You’re attempting to tie these mutations to only the unvaccinated. They likely shed mutations as well but that’s not what this paper highlights. Not only can the vaccinated spread the virus but they’re likely making it more pathogenic in the process. See here: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13...

criticaltinker 5y ago

> The logic is a bit circular, no? Yeah the paper is littered with these kinds of gaps in reasoning, see my other comment for a more detailed critique.

xenophonf 5y ago

Universal vaccination is how you kill it completely, like we did with smallpox and almost did with polio.

a0-prw 5y ago
Nope. The virus can already spread among vaccinated.
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  No, not all of them
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  The OP alleges it can't sufficiently mutate among the vaccinated, so their recommendation of full vaccination to eliminate the virus is perfectly consistent. Opening up and letting everyone get delta, vaccinated or not, is going to happen sooner and is not good because passing through the unvaccinated will cause many new mutations some of which might start new waves.
  - didjathinkmess 5y ago
    That's not at all what the paper says. >The OP alleges it can't sufficiently mutate among the vaccinated, so their recommendation of full vaccination to eliminate the virus is perfectly consistent. From the study: "We conclude that the virus becomes more contagious as it is screened through the vaccinated population and the resultant strain becomes the dominant strain and able to infect the entire population." The main takeaway from the paper is that the vaccinated are driving new variants. >Opening up and letting everyone get delta, vaccinated or not, is going to happen sooner and is not good because passing through the unvaccinated will cause many new mutations some of which might start new waves. Again, the paper states the vaccinated are driving new mutations. Technically due to natural immunity, the unvaccinated who have been previously infected are now in a better position than the vaccinated. They don't contract, get sick or spread whereas the vaccinated do. The big exception is unvaccinated who have never been infected by this coronavirus or any other past coronavirus. They are still susceptible to infection, spread, etc.
    - smorgusofborg 5y ago
      > The main takeaway from the paper is that the vaccinated are driving new variants. Filtering is the takeaway, one dominant strain and orders of magnitude less variations since most variation is not viable in a vaccinated public. If we have a highly variable virus that never goes away. That is the flu.
artificial 5y ago
This is next level as neither of those had animal reservoirs.
justwanttolearn 5y ago
On Polio "The fact that the virus can only survive in humans (and no other animals) makes it possible to completely eradicate the disease from the world – if it was a virus with an animal host such as influenza (birds) or tuberculosis (cows) that occasionally mutates to attack humans, polio could only ever be controlled but not eradicated." Covid transmits in animals. CDC says based on current data, transmission to human is low (but not impossible) but more studies are needed. The fact they can get it is already not on the same scale as smallpox or polio. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/animals.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/...

netizen-936824 5y ago

In what way did vaccines directly cause the virus to mutate to the Delta variant?

titzer 5y ago

It seems counterintuitive at first, but the logic is sound. More infections = more mutations. More time = more mutations. By having a significant proportion of unvaccinated people keeping the pandemic going, juxtaposed with a large, maybe even majority of people vaccinated, it confers an evolutionary advantage to any mutation that crosses from unvaccinated to vaccinated. A rapid increase in vaccination is needed to stamp out the infection before it can mutate. A slow burn is a worst case scenario, as it just keeps the door open for the shit to keep escaping.

penultimatebro 5y ago
The vaccinated shed mutations - it’s the conclusion of the paper. They are the petri dishes of which new vaccine derived mutations spawn. You’re attempting to tie these mutations to only the unvaccinated. They likely shed mutations as well but that’s not what this paper highlights. Not only can the vaccinated spread the virus but they’re likely making it more pathogenic in the process. See here: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198 https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article/info:doi/10.13...