24 ms·

Why this one in particular?

arcticbull 5y ago
Doesn't permit Americans from trading securities overseas outside the watchful gaze of the SEC. IMO that's where the bulk of the insanity and manipulation happens.
arcticbull 5y ago
I misspoke a little bit, but to clarify: the regulatory regime in the US requires that US persons only trade US equities at SEC regulated brokerages. As such, broadly speaking, Americans cannot open brokerage accounts in foreign countries. Regulation S offers an exemption to this blanket rule, saying they're trading exclusively offshore in some circumstances that's ok too. What I'm advocating is that all crypto trading by US persons be at SEC/CFTC/etc regulated exchanges. Offshore appears to be where the chaos happens, see: Binance.
- jcrites 5y ago
  Not all cryptocurrencies are securities. They don't all fall within the purview of the SEC. Bitcoin is not is a security. Neither is Etherium. I'm not an expert on this area but I don't believe the SEC has the power to regulate them, unless they stray into naughty territory. New Initial Coin Offerings are something that it can evaluate and deem a security, requiring proper SEC listing as a security; but the existing established digital currencies are not securities and do not require trading through brokers just like trading cash (or exchanging one currency for another) does not require brokers. The SEC hasn't declared them currencies but neither are they securities. They are assets that you can trade with anyone. That's my best understanding of the SEC's current stance. Future ICOs could also being avoid classified as securities if the avoided matching the rules that the SEC uses to evaluate whether an offering is a security. There's a checklist of criteria, including whether the asset is being advertised as something that people can buy and expect to make money on. Ethereum launched as a network where you could perform functional operations more complex than Bitcoin, and was a bit before the SEC got its evaluation rules together (from what I understand), and so may have slipped under the radar; but it certainly wasn't a pump-and-dump scheme like many other ICOs have been.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Ethereum definitely was, they just decided not to enforce the rules. Gensler I think recently re-iterated as much. And I don't really care the classification, I care that they're traded in a regulated venue. After all the CFTC has clear jurisdiction over ETH and BTC today. > The SEC hasn't declared them currencies but neither are they securities. They are commodities and fall under the purview of the CFTC, and are subject to their regulation. > Ethereum launched as a network where you could perform functional operations more complex than Bitcoin, and was a bit before the SEC got its evaluation rules together (from what I understand), and so may have slipped under the radar; but it certainly wasn't a pump-and-dump scheme like many other ICOs have been. Nope, they failed the Howey test which is the legal standard for determining whether something is a security. This was because they raised capital in their ICO. It was at the SECs discretion not to treat them as securities. Just because something isn't a pump-and-dump doesn't mean it's not a security. In fact, one would expect most securities not to be given it's kind of illegal. [1] I know it is today considered a commodity, however, it was always a security as determined by the Howey test. The SEC elected not to treat it as one at its discretion. [1] https://bitcoinist.com/secs-gary-gensler-crumbles-when-asked-if-ethereum-is-a-security/ https://bitcoinist.com/secs-gary-gensler-crumbles-when-asked...
    - jcrites 5y ago
      I think you are mistaken about Ethereum being classified as a security. This is just a quick Google search for the first result but: > On Thursday, June 14, 2018, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission’s (SEC) Director of Corporate Finance, William Hinman (Hinman), announced that the commission would not be treating Ether or Bitcoin as securities. The SEC’s announcement is in line with the recent comments of SEC Chairman, Jay Clayton, who recently noted the difference between cryptocurrencies and digital tokens, saying that cryptocurrencies as “replacements for sovereign currencies” were not securities, while digital assets revolving around a venture are often securities. https://cassels.com/insights/sec-declares-bitcoin-and-ether-as-non-securities/#:~:text=On%20Thursday%2C%20June%2014%2C%202018,Ether%20or%20Bitcoin%20as%20securities https://cassels.com/insights/sec-declares-bitcoin-and-ether-.... Maybe you meant to say that it just escaped being classified as a security, but as far as I can tell it's a commodity at present.

Doesn't permit Americans from trading securities overseas outside the watchful gaze of the SEC. IMO that's where the bulk of the insanity and manipulation happens.

arcticbull 5y ago

I misspoke a little bit, but to clarify: the regulatory regime in the US requires that US persons only trade US equities at SEC regulated brokerages. As such, broadly speaking, Americans cannot open brokerage accounts in foreign countries. Regulation S offers an exemption to this blanket rule, saying they're trading exclusively offshore in some circumstances that's ok too. What I'm advocating is that all crypto trading by US persons be at SEC/CFTC/etc regulated exchanges. Offshore appears to be where the chaos happens, see: Binance.

jcrites 5y ago
Not all cryptocurrencies are securities. They don't all fall within the purview of the SEC. Bitcoin is not is a security. Neither is Etherium. I'm not an expert on this area but I don't believe the SEC has the power to regulate them, unless they stray into naughty territory. New Initial Coin Offerings are something that it can evaluate and deem a security, requiring proper SEC listing as a security; but the existing established digital currencies are not securities and do not require trading through brokers just like trading cash (or exchanging one currency for another) does not require brokers. The SEC hasn't declared them currencies but neither are they securities. They are assets that you can trade with anyone. That's my best understanding of the SEC's current stance. Future ICOs could also being avoid classified as securities if the avoided matching the rules that the SEC uses to evaluate whether an offering is a security. There's a checklist of criteria, including whether the asset is being advertised as something that people can buy and expect to make money on. Ethereum launched as a network where you could perform functional operations more complex than Bitcoin, and was a bit before the SEC got its evaluation rules together (from what I understand), and so may have slipped under the radar; but it certainly wasn't a pump-and-dump scheme like many other ICOs have been.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Ethereum definitely was, they just decided not to enforce the rules. Gensler I think recently re-iterated as much. And I don't really care the classification, I care that they're traded in a regulated venue. After all the CFTC has clear jurisdiction over ETH and BTC today. > The SEC hasn't declared them currencies but neither are they securities. They are commodities and fall under the purview of the CFTC, and are subject to their regulation. > Ethereum launched as a network where you could perform functional operations more complex than Bitcoin, and was a bit before the SEC got its evaluation rules together (from what I understand), and so may have slipped under the radar; but it certainly wasn't a pump-and-dump scheme like many other ICOs have been. Nope, they failed the Howey test which is the legal standard for determining whether something is a security. This was because they raised capital in their ICO. It was at the SECs discretion not to treat them as securities. Just because something isn't a pump-and-dump doesn't mean it's not a security. In fact, one would expect most securities not to be given it's kind of illegal. [1] I know it is today considered a commodity, however, it was always a security as determined by the Howey test. The SEC elected not to treat it as one at its discretion. [1] https://bitcoinist.com/secs-gary-gensler-crumbles-when-asked-if-ethereum-is-a-security/ https://bitcoinist.com/secs-gary-gensler-crumbles-when-asked...
  - jcrites 5y ago
    I think you are mistaken about Ethereum being classified as a security. This is just a quick Google search for the first result but: > On Thursday, June 14, 2018, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission’s (SEC) Director of Corporate Finance, William Hinman (Hinman), announced that the commission would not be treating Ether or Bitcoin as securities. The SEC’s announcement is in line with the recent comments of SEC Chairman, Jay Clayton, who recently noted the difference between cryptocurrencies and digital tokens, saying that cryptocurrencies as “replacements for sovereign currencies” were not securities, while digital assets revolving around a venture are often securities. https://cassels.com/insights/sec-declares-bitcoin-and-ether-as-non-securities/#:~:text=On%20Thursday%2C%20June%2014%2C%202018,Ether%20or%20Bitcoin%20as%20securities https://cassels.com/insights/sec-declares-bitcoin-and-ether-.... Maybe you meant to say that it just escaped being classified as a security, but as far as I can tell it's a commodity at present.