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> I am just another guy trying to make a buck like everyone else on this planet. What? Most people aren't trying to make a quick buck by rent-seeking in a syst

> I am just another guy trying to make a buck like everyone else on this planet. What? Most people aren't trying to make a quick buck by rent-seeking in a system based on massive electrical waste. Myself? I cut my work hours recently so that I can live now instead of dreaming of someday. I spend my free time enjoying my life, not trying to figure out who to exploit. That's also an option.

andreilys 5y ago
I spend my free time enjoying my life, not trying to figure out who to exploit. It’s not clear to me why building a derivatives trading bot leads to exploitation but whatever floats your ideological boat I suppose.
- girvo 5y ago
  I don't neccesarily agree with what I'm about to comment, I'm just adding some clarity: ...rent-seeking in a system based on massive electrical waste. With that as the core assumption, the exploitation would be anyone who relies on the environment (everyone, then), I'd think.
  - gruez 5y ago
    How is operating a trading bot "rent seeking"?
    - Igelau 5y ago
      "Rent-seeking is the effort to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating new wealth." The accusation here, right or wrong, is that this is what crypto and the bot are ultimately doing. Note, this may have you reaching for questions that start with "How is this any different from..."
      - fighterpilot 5y ago
        The claim of pure rent-seeking is easily disproven by comparing bid-offer spreads before and after the advent of computerized market making and seeing how much bid-offer transaction costs have shrunk for the average investor.
    - girvo 5y ago
      I don't know that it is, IMO.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    You're being too charitable. By their definition of "exploit", anyone holding crypto and benefiting from capital gains is "exploiting", since these people are also benefiting off a system based on "massive electrical waste". Is there a term for someone who stretches language in such a way for rhetorical purposes? I can see why it's an effective rhetorical trick, since it forces people to debate whether the behavior is bad enough to fit the definition of exploitation, or whether it's not sufficiently bad. By having this debate we've already implicitly accepted their premise that something bad is going on.
    - lmm 5y ago
      > By their definition of "exploit", anyone holding crypto and benefiting from capital gains is "exploiting", since these people are also benefiting off a system based on "massive electrical waste". Yes. Isn't it?
    - bostonsre 5y ago
      > By having this debate we've already implicitly accepted their premise that something bad is going on. Isn't the electrical waste something bad?
      - fighterpilot 5y ago
        This is begging the question. They've presupposed that it's bad by using the word "waste", without actually having made the case. I happen to think that flying overseas for a holiday wastes a lot of energy. I could label this a "massive energy waste". Then as a corollary I could label people taking those trips and people facilitating those trips as "exploitative" actors. But these are mere debating tricks even though it's all vaguely accurate given the words I've chosen and the framing I've picked. The root problem to all of this is an untaxed externality.
        bostonsre 5y ago
        I'm not sure it's that complicated. A lot of crypto currencies use a lot of electricity that wouldn't have been used otherwise. A portion of that electricity that was used will be non-renewable energy. > I happen to think that flying overseas for a holiday wastes a lot of energy. I could label this a "massive energy waste". Yes, people taking over seas vacations instead of staying home also wastes energy.
hh3k0 5y ago
> Myself? I cut my work hours recently so that I can live now instead of dreaming of someday. Which has the added benefit of the now not being an apocalyptic hellscape just yet.
johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago
So what I am doing is wrong, but trading derivatives with less leverage in sanctioned markets is allowed/legal? I get it, I could be doing something much more productive with my life. The money this bot makes isn't for myself if that's any consolation. Not most of it anyways. I have big plans to use the money generated to help the poor. I live very frugally, exclusively shop at thrift stores, drive a 20 year old car that I fix myself, and am frustrated with all of the homelessness I see in my city. In my eyes, this bot is the only way I can stand to make a real dent in that pressing issue. All I know how to do is code. My cryptocurrency of choice is Stellar actually, it doesn't use any electricity hardly whatsoever to keep it's blockchain safe. Not all cryptocurrencies are hell-bent on destroying the globe. Some of them actually try to solve real problems.
- tedk-42 5y ago
  > I have big plans to use the money generated to help the poor. That's probably what billionaires tells themselves as they rocket to outer space.
- tourist2d 5y ago
  > I have big plans to use the money generated to help the poor. Everyone who wants to be rich says this exact line even though you don't need a lot of money to help the poor. Do you currently volunteer for shelters, charities or soup kitchens? If not, why do you think that will change when you get more money?
mgh2 5y ago
Robbing from others to give to the poor, or leeching off people's hard work - both seem very noble... Funny how each side (Robinhood or FIRE) try to justify their choices.
- cycrutchfield 5y ago
  How is FIRE “leeching off people’s hard work”?
  - gruez 5y ago
    Presumably because you're sitting back and retiring while everyone around you still work. The logic is flawed though, because it doesn't account for the fact that you had to forgo consumption in order to build up a reserve to retire early.
    - temp10298385 5y ago
      I'm very curious about the ethics of early retirement. Forgone consumption seems like a reasonable justification. But surely there is a limit? If I retire by early and through compounding interest amass a fortune that would allow my children to retire before they even enter the work force, is that ethical? Similar scenario: I take up arms to aid the king and in turn ensure stability and peace for society. The land I'm given as compensation allow my lineage to live as nobility for centuries. Is that ethical? I'm making hyperboles not to discount your logic but to show an extreme and try to pinpoint where the limit is. For what its worth, I'm saving quite aggressively and live very modestly for the sole purpose of increasing my leisure, perhaps to retire early. So I am obviously not making this argument as a way to bash FIRE practitioners. I am genuinely curious about the ethical implications of compounding rewards for legitimate sacrifice. Of course someone who works hard in their youth without consuming should be able to retire earlier without guilt. Though I think Warren Buffett is on to something in his disdain for dynastic wealth.
      - gruez 5y ago
        >If I retire by early and through compounding interest amass a fortune that would allow my children to retire before they even enter the work force, is that ethical? It's easy to argue it's unethical by invoking utilitarianism. Unfortunately that also means basically anyone with a white collar job in the first world are unethical, which I'm not sure most people would agree. Other than that I can't think of any convincing for why that's unethical.
staplers 5y ago
Most people aren't trying to make a quick buck by rent-seeking in a system based on massive electrical waste. Yeah become a noble developer for software that charges a monthly fee and uses massive servers like everyone else.
- jkhdigital 5y ago
  Zing! On the reals though, casual moral condemnation of particular economic activity is usually indicative of insufficient self-reflection.
- Igelau 5y ago
  The reply to this comment is being forged. Time remaining: 48 hours. Get it sooner for 5 gems! Gem packs are now on sale in randomized loot drops, or get one per day by watching this ad!
johanneskanybal 5y ago
And then use those extra hours trolling on the internet? Something that provides value (liquidity) can’t be rent-seeking. Likewise the electricity isn’t waste since it enables something people value (bitcoin).
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
How about the guys trying to make a quick buck by rent-seeking in a system based on massive waste of people's time (all the social media basically)?

andreilys 5y ago

I spend my free time enjoying my life, not trying to figure out who to exploit. It’s not clear to me why building a derivatives trading bot leads to exploitation but whatever floats your ideological boat I suppose.

girvo 5y ago
I don't neccesarily agree with what I'm about to comment, I'm just adding some clarity: ...rent-seeking in a system based on massive electrical waste. With that as the core assumption, the exploitation would be anyone who relies on the environment (everyone, then), I'd think.
- gruez 5y ago
  How is operating a trading bot "rent seeking"?
  - Igelau 5y ago
    "Rent-seeking is the effort to increase one's share of existing wealth without creating new wealth." The accusation here, right or wrong, is that this is what crypto and the bot are ultimately doing. Note, this may have you reaching for questions that start with "How is this any different from..."
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      The claim of pure rent-seeking is easily disproven by comparing bid-offer spreads before and after the advent of computerized market making and seeing how much bid-offer transaction costs have shrunk for the average investor.
  - girvo 5y ago
    I don't know that it is, IMO.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  You're being too charitable. By their definition of "exploit", anyone holding crypto and benefiting from capital gains is "exploiting", since these people are also benefiting off a system based on "massive electrical waste". Is there a term for someone who stretches language in such a way for rhetorical purposes? I can see why it's an effective rhetorical trick, since it forces people to debate whether the behavior is bad enough to fit the definition of exploitation, or whether it's not sufficiently bad. By having this debate we've already implicitly accepted their premise that something bad is going on.
  - lmm 5y ago
    > By their definition of "exploit", anyone holding crypto and benefiting from capital gains is "exploiting", since these people are also benefiting off a system based on "massive electrical waste". Yes. Isn't it?
  - bostonsre 5y ago
    > By having this debate we've already implicitly accepted their premise that something bad is going on. Isn't the electrical waste something bad?
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      This is begging the question. They've presupposed that it's bad by using the word "waste", without actually having made the case. I happen to think that flying overseas for a holiday wastes a lot of energy. I could label this a "massive energy waste". Then as a corollary I could label people taking those trips and people facilitating those trips as "exploitative" actors. But these are mere debating tricks even though it's all vaguely accurate given the words I've chosen and the framing I've picked. The root problem to all of this is an untaxed externality.
      - bostonsre 5y ago
        I'm not sure it's that complicated. A lot of crypto currencies use a lot of electricity that wouldn't have been used otherwise. A portion of that electricity that was used will be non-renewable energy. > I happen to think that flying overseas for a holiday wastes a lot of energy. I could label this a "massive energy waste". Yes, people taking over seas vacations instead of staying home also wastes energy.

hh3k0 5y ago

> Myself? I cut my work hours recently so that I can live now instead of dreaming of someday. Which has the added benefit of the now not being an apocalyptic hellscape just yet.

johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago

So what I am doing is wrong, but trading derivatives with less leverage in sanctioned markets is allowed/legal? I get it, I could be doing something much more productive with my life. The money this bot makes isn't for myself if that's any consolation. Not most of it anyways. I have big plans to use the money generated to help the poor. I live very frugally, exclusively shop at thrift stores, drive a 20 year old car that I fix myself, and am frustrated with all of the homelessness I see in my city. In my eyes, this bot is the only way I can stand to make a real dent in that pressing issue. All I know how to do is code. My cryptocurrency of choice is Stellar actually, it doesn't use any electricity hardly whatsoever to keep it's blockchain safe. Not all cryptocurrencies are hell-bent on destroying the globe. Some of them actually try to solve real problems.

tedk-42 5y ago
> I have big plans to use the money generated to help the poor. That's probably what billionaires tells themselves as they rocket to outer space.
tourist2d 5y ago
> I have big plans to use the money generated to help the poor. Everyone who wants to be rich says this exact line even though you don't need a lot of money to help the poor. Do you currently volunteer for shelters, charities or soup kitchens? If not, why do you think that will change when you get more money?

mgh2 5y ago

Robbing from others to give to the poor, or leeching off people's hard work - both seem very noble... Funny how each side (Robinhood or FIRE) try to justify their choices.

cycrutchfield 5y ago
How is FIRE “leeching off people’s hard work”?
- gruez 5y ago
  Presumably because you're sitting back and retiring while everyone around you still work. The logic is flawed though, because it doesn't account for the fact that you had to forgo consumption in order to build up a reserve to retire early.
  - temp10298385 5y ago
    I'm very curious about the ethics of early retirement. Forgone consumption seems like a reasonable justification. But surely there is a limit? If I retire by early and through compounding interest amass a fortune that would allow my children to retire before they even enter the work force, is that ethical? Similar scenario: I take up arms to aid the king and in turn ensure stability and peace for society. The land I'm given as compensation allow my lineage to live as nobility for centuries. Is that ethical? I'm making hyperboles not to discount your logic but to show an extreme and try to pinpoint where the limit is. For what its worth, I'm saving quite aggressively and live very modestly for the sole purpose of increasing my leisure, perhaps to retire early. So I am obviously not making this argument as a way to bash FIRE practitioners. I am genuinely curious about the ethical implications of compounding rewards for legitimate sacrifice. Of course someone who works hard in their youth without consuming should be able to retire earlier without guilt. Though I think Warren Buffett is on to something in his disdain for dynastic wealth.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >If I retire by early and through compounding interest amass a fortune that would allow my children to retire before they even enter the work force, is that ethical? It's easy to argue it's unethical by invoking utilitarianism. Unfortunately that also means basically anyone with a white collar job in the first world are unethical, which I'm not sure most people would agree. Other than that I can't think of any convincing for why that's unethical.

staplers 5y ago

Most people aren't trying to make a quick buck by rent-seeking in a system based on massive electrical waste. Yeah become a noble developer for software that charges a monthly fee and uses massive servers like everyone else.

jkhdigital 5y ago
Zing! On the reals though, casual moral condemnation of particular economic activity is usually indicative of insufficient self-reflection.
Igelau 5y ago
The reply to this comment is being forged. Time remaining: 48 hours. Get it sooner for 5 gems! Gem packs are now on sale in randomized loot drops, or get one per day by watching this ad!

johanneskanybal 5y ago

And then use those extra hours trolling on the internet? Something that provides value (liquidity) can’t be rent-seeking. Likewise the electricity isn’t waste since it enables something people value (bitcoin).

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago

How about the guys trying to make a quick buck by rent-seeking in a system based on massive waste of people's time (all the social media basically)?