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For me, the value of ingenuity has not been the fact that it flies but rather that is designed to be operated in a far more risky way than a traditional rover.

For me, the value of ingenuity has not been the fact that it flies but rather that is designed to be operated in a far more risky way than a traditional rover. A mission that consisted solely of a single larger helicopter would be far more risk averse. It would travel shorter distances, move slower and have so much redundancy built in that there is likely to be little mass dedicated to the scientific instruments.

rtkwe 5y ago
The issue is it has to be pretty big to carry much in the way of scientific instruments to begin with. Right now there's no scientific instruments on Ingenuity beyond the camera and that is only really useful for surveying the ground. Also Ingenuity can be risky because it's goal is to test the craft itself so they take risks with it to see how well the design performs at the edges of it's flight envelope.
BotJunkie 5y ago
The most likely way for MSH to get funded in the near term is as part of NASA's sample return goals. 5kg of science payload is not insubstantial, but even if MSH's primary instrument was just a sampling tool, it could still do some unique stuff. It could collect otherwise inaccessible samples from across a very wide area, and then bring them all back to a centralized location, which a rover can't do very well.
bobsmooth 5y ago
I think one of the most interesting parts of Ingenuity is that it uses off the shelf ARM processors instead of highly specialized (and old) radiation-hardened processors.
- sennight 5y ago
  > ...ARM processors instead of highly specialized... You've got that backwards: Perseverance is equipped with a RAD750, which is simply a radiation hardened PowerPC 750 - that is about as general purpose as it gets. Ingenuity is equipped with a Snapdragon 801, which is an unhardened Qualcomm processor tailor made for cellphones. I doubt anyone could know the degree to which it is "highly specialized" for cellphones without first signing NDAs from multiple parties. I've always found the most impressive aspect of these programs to be the careful engineering that extends the mission life far beyond the original goals. Ingenuity was engineered to die - on either a cliff face or from radiation poisoning, which isn't interesting - it is wasteful.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bobsmooth 5y ago
    There are billions of ARM processors used in a wide range of applications. How many radiation hardened CPUs are in use today? And the one of the goals of Ingenuity was to see if a COTS processor could be used on Mars. The fact that it's survived this long is really encouraging.
    - sennight 5y ago
      > How many radiation hardened CPUs are in use today? Whoosh. A radiation hardened PowerPC 750 operates no differently from a PowerPC 750 you'd find on Ebay. You are effectively saying "Yeah, but how many commercial temperature range processors are in use today?!" It is weird, because it is such a silly distinction to point to that you have to actually examine the manufacturer's packaging datasheet to spot the difference. But at the same time you have no problem conflating every processor using IP licensed by Arm Ltd as the same thing... they have at least 20 distinct architectures and it doesn't look like compatibility was ever much of a priority. The larger point being that the powerpc ISA is infinitely more coherent than the fractured mess Arm has going on, which is very likely the product of designers aligning the platform with disposable electronics. Do you really want to see that trend go beyond crappy cellphones designed to be thrown out every other year? > ...one of the goals of Ingenuity was to see if a COTS processor could be used on Mars. That has been said - but has never been explained why... because it is such a thoroughly covered concern that has had a huge amount of money spent on developing industry standards and commissioning incredibly comprehensive studies. So this justification is either an oversimplification to the point of being lie, or it is an indictment on their own work (and that of many others) with regard to the effects of radiation on electronic. Does Mars have some new kind of radiation that our highly controlled labs can't replicate? Of course not, it is a nonsensically wasteful way to test our understanding of radiation - at best. > The fact that it's survived this long is really encouraging. lol, the processor has no way of self diagnosing internal faults caused by ionizing radiation. That would be like celebrating your lack of cancer while on a smoke break at your job in an asbestos factory - and at the same time bragging about never getting medical checkups.

rtkwe 5y ago

The issue is it has to be pretty big to carry much in the way of scientific instruments to begin with. Right now there's no scientific instruments on Ingenuity beyond the camera and that is only really useful for surveying the ground. Also Ingenuity can be risky because it's goal is to test the craft itself so they take risks with it to see how well the design performs at the edges of it's flight envelope.

BotJunkie 5y ago

The most likely way for MSH to get funded in the near term is as part of NASA's sample return goals. 5kg of science payload is not insubstantial, but even if MSH's primary instrument was just a sampling tool, it could still do some unique stuff. It could collect otherwise inaccessible samples from across a very wide area, and then bring them all back to a centralized location, which a rover can't do very well.

bobsmooth 5y ago

I think one of the most interesting parts of Ingenuity is that it uses off the shelf ARM processors instead of highly specialized (and old) radiation-hardened processors.

sennight 5y ago
> ...ARM processors instead of highly specialized... You've got that backwards: Perseverance is equipped with a RAD750, which is simply a radiation hardened PowerPC 750 - that is about as general purpose as it gets. Ingenuity is equipped with a Snapdragon 801, which is an unhardened Qualcomm processor tailor made for cellphones. I doubt anyone could know the degree to which it is "highly specialized" for cellphones without first signing NDAs from multiple parties. I've always found the most impressive aspect of these programs to be the careful engineering that extends the mission life far beyond the original goals. Ingenuity was engineered to die - on either a cliff face or from radiation poisoning, which isn't interesting - it is wasteful.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bobsmooth 5y ago
  There are billions of ARM processors used in a wide range of applications. How many radiation hardened CPUs are in use today? And the one of the goals of Ingenuity was to see if a COTS processor could be used on Mars. The fact that it's survived this long is really encouraging.
  - sennight 5y ago
    > How many radiation hardened CPUs are in use today? Whoosh. A radiation hardened PowerPC 750 operates no differently from a PowerPC 750 you'd find on Ebay. You are effectively saying "Yeah, but how many commercial temperature range processors are in use today?!" It is weird, because it is such a silly distinction to point to that you have to actually examine the manufacturer's packaging datasheet to spot the difference. But at the same time you have no problem conflating every processor using IP licensed by Arm Ltd as the same thing... they have at least 20 distinct architectures and it doesn't look like compatibility was ever much of a priority. The larger point being that the powerpc ISA is infinitely more coherent than the fractured mess Arm has going on, which is very likely the product of designers aligning the platform with disposable electronics. Do you really want to see that trend go beyond crappy cellphones designed to be thrown out every other year? > ...one of the goals of Ingenuity was to see if a COTS processor could be used on Mars. That has been said - but has never been explained why... because it is such a thoroughly covered concern that has had a huge amount of money spent on developing industry standards and commissioning incredibly comprehensive studies. So this justification is either an oversimplification to the point of being lie, or it is an indictment on their own work (and that of many others) with regard to the effects of radiation on electronic. Does Mars have some new kind of radiation that our highly controlled labs can't replicate? Of course not, it is a nonsensically wasteful way to test our understanding of radiation - at best. > The fact that it's survived this long is really encouraging. lol, the processor has no way of self diagnosing internal faults caused by ionizing radiation. That would be like celebrating your lack of cancer while on a smoke break at your job in an asbestos factory - and at the same time bragging about never getting medical checkups.