4 ms·

What sort of manipulative amplification/suppression, specifically? Maybe a skinner box outrage machine that turns us into hostile tribes sniping over cultural

What sort of manipulative amplification/suppression, specifically? Maybe a skinner box outrage machine that turns us into hostile tribes sniping over cultural crap while completely unable to govern ourselves as they surpass us?

tablespoon 5y ago
> What sort of manipulative amplification/suppression, specifically? Maybe a skinner box outrage machine that turns us into hostile tribes sniping over cultural crap while completely unable to govern ourselves as they surpass us? Amplifying pre-existing fault lines to encourage general weakness is certainly one that's been well explored. Another might be amplifying political or ideological that serve the foreign power's goals (e.g. general pacifism when that power is planning some kind of aggression or military build up, or electioneering messages for a candidate with a more favorable trade policy to that power). No one could deliver particular results with certainty using any of these methods, but they could definitely put their finger on the scales.
- refenestrator 5y ago
  Sorry I was describing our current social networks. Impossible to gauge how thick to lay it on in text.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Sorry I was describing our current social networks. Impossible to gauge how thick to lay it on in text. I know you were. The issue here isn't that this kind of manipulation is totally unheard of, it's that it could be done far, far more effectively and stealthily with the control of the platform.
    - refenestrator 5y ago
      Eh let's take responsibility for our own culture before blaming on the insidious machinations of the great hidden Other.
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > Eh let's take responsibility for our own culture before blaming on the insidious machinations of the great hidden Other. What now? Who's blaming anything "on the insidious machinations of the great hidden Other"?
        refenestrator 5y ago
        "Effective and stealthy manipulation" were your words I believe. Short hop from there for someone else to go further. We just watched people spend 3-4 years claiming that 50 Russian internet trolls were responsible for beating a billion dollar presidential campaign. The "smart people"! At some point you have to add up the mass values and ask if this adds up, or if we're just making excuses for ourselves.
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > "Effective and stealthy manipulation" were your words I believe. Short hop from there for someone else to go further. A hop you took, not me. > We just watched people spend 3-4 years claiming that 50 Russian internet trolls were responsible for beating a billion dollar presidential campaign. Fifty Russian internet trolls (likely more), were working to put their finger on the scale, but it's an exaggeration to say definitively that they "were responsible for beating a billion dollar presidential campaign." Maybe they tipped the scale, but maybe they didn't. There's no way anyone will ever answer that question. It's like hacking. Has a foreign nation hacked the US power grid to cause widespread blackouts? No. Does that mean foreign hacking of US utility companies is not something for Americans to be concerned about? No. Does that mean the US shouldn't harden its power grid against the threat? Also no.
        refenestrator 5y ago
        It's a scale with a billion dollars on either end, and we were asked to believe a small office of internet trolls from Russia tipped it. BS detector engaged. If we're so fragile that some marginal stuff can steer our culture, then we deserve it.
Permit 5y ago
> What sort of manipulative amplification/suppression, specifically? I don't know if this counts but I was surprised to run into this pro-DPRK account while scrolling recently: https://www.tiktok.com/@dprkorea_?lang=en https://www.tiktok.com/@dprkorea_?lang=en It purports to show North Korea through the lens of a hidden camera. Plenty of shots of couples holding hands and playing badminton without nets. I get the sense that this is propaganda and not genuinely capturing the everyday lives of North Koreans. That said, I can't prove that this is the case.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Why wouldn't North Koeans hold hands? Most have normal lives in an abnormal place. The best performers train there entire lives and put on shows year round. Secretly they hope the leader will show up one day. In America people wait hoirs to get a star to sign something. In North Korea the biggest star is the leader. From the real footage I've seen it's a crazy place with normal people who do normal things.
  - Permit 5y ago
    > Why wouldn't North Koeans hold hands? Most have normal lives in an abnormal place. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't. What I'm trying to convey is: I have no idea what life in North Korea is like because (to my understanding) nearly every photo that is taken and leaves the country must be approved by North Korean officials[1]. I think many people would love to see North Korea as it is, not as North Korean officials would like it to appear. As such, a TikTok account that claims to be secretly filming North Koreans and exfiltrating that footage is very interesting. However, I believe there is a good chance that this footage is still released with the approval of the North Korean government and does not accurately capture the everyday lives of North Koreans. The fundamental problem here is that I don't know what life in North Korea is like. I cannot claim with certainty that this footage was staged. I suspect the same could be said about the footage that you've seen, it is very hard for outsiders to know what is real and what is not. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-life-photos-2018-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-life-photos-2018...

tablespoon 5y ago

> What sort of manipulative amplification/suppression, specifically? Maybe a skinner box outrage machine that turns us into hostile tribes sniping over cultural crap while completely unable to govern ourselves as they surpass us? Amplifying pre-existing fault lines to encourage general weakness is certainly one that's been well explored. Another might be amplifying political or ideological that serve the foreign power's goals (e.g. general pacifism when that power is planning some kind of aggression or military build up, or electioneering messages for a candidate with a more favorable trade policy to that power). No one could deliver particular results with certainty using any of these methods, but they could definitely put their finger on the scales.

refenestrator 5y ago
Sorry I was describing our current social networks. Impossible to gauge how thick to lay it on in text.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Sorry I was describing our current social networks. Impossible to gauge how thick to lay it on in text. I know you were. The issue here isn't that this kind of manipulation is totally unheard of, it's that it could be done far, far more effectively and stealthily with the control of the platform.
  - refenestrator 5y ago
    Eh let's take responsibility for our own culture before blaming on the insidious machinations of the great hidden Other.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > Eh let's take responsibility for our own culture before blaming on the insidious machinations of the great hidden Other. What now? Who's blaming anything "on the insidious machinations of the great hidden Other"?
      - refenestrator 5y ago
        "Effective and stealthy manipulation" were your words I believe. Short hop from there for someone else to go further. We just watched people spend 3-4 years claiming that 50 Russian internet trolls were responsible for beating a billion dollar presidential campaign. The "smart people"! At some point you have to add up the mass values and ask if this adds up, or if we're just making excuses for ourselves.
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > "Effective and stealthy manipulation" were your words I believe. Short hop from there for someone else to go further. A hop you took, not me. > We just watched people spend 3-4 years claiming that 50 Russian internet trolls were responsible for beating a billion dollar presidential campaign. Fifty Russian internet trolls (likely more), were working to put their finger on the scale, but it's an exaggeration to say definitively that they "were responsible for beating a billion dollar presidential campaign." Maybe they tipped the scale, but maybe they didn't. There's no way anyone will ever answer that question. It's like hacking. Has a foreign nation hacked the US power grid to cause widespread blackouts? No. Does that mean foreign hacking of US utility companies is not something for Americans to be concerned about? No. Does that mean the US shouldn't harden its power grid against the threat? Also no.
        refenestrator 5y ago
        It's a scale with a billion dollars on either end, and we were asked to believe a small office of internet trolls from Russia tipped it. BS detector engaged. If we're so fragile that some marginal stuff can steer our culture, then we deserve it.

Permit 5y ago

> What sort of manipulative amplification/suppression, specifically? I don't know if this counts but I was surprised to run into this pro-DPRK account while scrolling recently: https://www.tiktok.com/@dprkorea_?lang=en https://www.tiktok.com/@dprkorea_?lang=en It purports to show North Korea through the lens of a hidden camera. Plenty of shots of couples holding hands and playing badminton without nets. I get the sense that this is propaganda and not genuinely capturing the everyday lives of North Koreans. That said, I can't prove that this is the case.

ipaddr 5y ago
Why wouldn't North Koeans hold hands? Most have normal lives in an abnormal place. The best performers train there entire lives and put on shows year round. Secretly they hope the leader will show up one day. In America people wait hoirs to get a star to sign something. In North Korea the biggest star is the leader. From the real footage I've seen it's a crazy place with normal people who do normal things.
- Permit 5y ago
  > Why wouldn't North Koeans hold hands? Most have normal lives in an abnormal place. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that they wouldn't. What I'm trying to convey is: I have no idea what life in North Korea is like because (to my understanding) nearly every photo that is taken and leaves the country must be approved by North Korean officials[1]. I think many people would love to see North Korea as it is, not as North Korean officials would like it to appear. As such, a TikTok account that claims to be secretly filming North Koreans and exfiltrating that footage is very interesting. However, I believe there is a good chance that this footage is still released with the approval of the North Korean government and does not accurately capture the everyday lives of North Koreans. The fundamental problem here is that I don't know what life in North Korea is like. I cannot claim with certainty that this footage was staged. I suspect the same could be said about the footage that you've seen, it is very hard for outsiders to know what is real and what is not. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-life-photos-2018-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/north-korea-life-photos-2018...