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> What does "ultra processed" mean? Cheese, bread, olive oil and most vegetables require processing to be made or nutritionally useful. I don't have a scientif

> What does "ultra processed" mean? Cheese, bread, olive oil and most vegetables require processing to be made or nutritionally useful. I don't have a scientific definition for you. Just use your common sense to figure out what average people would intuitively call ultra-processed, whatever it means to them. I'm pretty darn sure you would not arrive at the conclusion that ordinary people consider bread and most vegetables "ultra-processed foods".

itake 5y ago
Why is bread not considered ultra-processed? I am trying to use my common sense here. To create it, you must apply mechanical processing to grind wheat. Chemical processing for the yeast to reacting to the sugars. thermal processing to cook the bread. There is evaporation of the liquid in the bread. This seems like a lot of processes required to create this.
- artimaeis 5y ago
  Bread could be classified as either processed or ultra-processed depending on ingredients and manufacturing techniques. Ultra-processed bread would probably be made to have a longer shelf life and likely have more additives and preservatives.
- fancifalmanima 5y ago
  if you buy (from a bakery, probably not from the grocery store) or make bread made from minimally processed to processed flour, water, salt and yeast it would probably be considered minimally processed or processed. When I make homemade bread, those are literally all the ingredients. It has a very different texture, chewiness, and taste from something storebought. They're basically different things. And it doesn't last more than a day or two after cutting it open. If you buy bread made from bleached white flour, sugar (in pretty much any white bread you buy from the supermarket), bread conditioners, preservatives, etc, it's probably considered ultraprocessed. It can also sit in your pantry for weeks.
- slothtrop 5y ago
  Bread can be ultra-processed. It can also be made with ground wheat grains that don't remove the germ or get bleached.
- chithanh 5y ago
  > Why is bread not considered ulta-processed? Even traditional bread is certainly highly processed, undergoing mechanical (milling), biochemical (fermentation), and thermal (baking) processing. It doesn't quite meet the definition of ultra-processed though as all these technologies are readily available to unsophisticated producers. I think ultra-processed is some sort of proxy for hyperpalatable here.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Indeed, there's a definition but this just adds the the starting comment's point that "ultra-processed" barely means anything in relation to how healthy something is to eat (and at what quantities).
  - legerdemain 5y ago
    Wouldn't most supermarket bread flour by itself meet the definition of ultra-processed, because it is bleached and enriched with micronutrients in a way that almost no consumer can do in the kitchen?
    - CarelessExpert 5y ago
      > because it is bleached and enriched with micronutrients in a way that almost no consumer can do in the kitchen? What gave you that idea? Bleached flour and various additives (such as ascorbic acid) are routinely used in home kitchens: https://thebreadguide.com/using-ascorbic-acid-when-baking/ https://thebreadguide.com/using-ascorbic-acid-when-baking/ What, exactly, do you think goes into making a loaf of mass-produced bread?
      - legerdemain 5y ago
        The bleaching is what makes the flour, and by extension the bread made from it, ultra-processed, even if the bread is baked in a home setting. You misread.
        CarelessExpert 5y ago
- synquid 5y ago
  They're processed foods, but not ultra-processed. Generally that means advanced factory processes and chemicals that are only used in industrial settings. Factory made bread is likely to be ultra-processed, however.
  - itake 5y ago
    Can you provide an example of a factory process that is only performed in a factory (and not in the kitchen + grocery store, e.g. flour is preprocessed wheat)? bonus points if this process applies to bread making.
    - fanf2 5y ago
      Compare the Chorleywood process to the way you would make bread at home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process
      - CarelessExpert 5y ago
        If I'm reading this right, literally the only difference between this process and the one used in a home kitchen is "intense mechanical working by high-speed mixers, not feasible in a small-scale kitchen". Otherwise the raw materials are the same: > Flour, water, yeast, salt, fat, and, where used, minor ingredients common to many bread-making techniques such as Vitamin C, emulsifiers and enzymes are mechanically mixed for about three minutes. In what way does this represent "processed" food in any material sense? If anything, this sounds like a perfect example of the kind of fear mongering associated with the "processed food" label...
        vb6sp6 5y ago
        > Otherwise the raw materials are the same Edit: I misread, sorry
        CarelessExpert 5y ago
the__alchemist 5y ago
> Just use your common sense to figure out what average people would intuitively call ultra-processed How do I do that? Are we averaging the opinions of other people, or taking the opinion of the average person? By what metric?
willismichael 5y ago
> I'm pretty darn sure you would not arrive at the conclusion that ordinary people consider bread and most vegetables "ultra-processed foods". That depends on what you mean by bread. The sourdough loaf that I make out of flour straight from the grinder is a far cry from cheap white bread.
elil17 5y ago
Well according to the UN document linked in the article a loaf of bread is ultra-processed
- dataflow 5y ago
  "Another example of how broadening the initial definition of a highly or ultra-processed food may create confusion is the use of terms that, in themselves, are not precisely defined. For bread, initially defined as such in the NOVA food classification, examples might be the use of terms such as sliced, mass-produced, or sweetened. Their exact interpretation is not self-evident. [...]" [1] Again, there's no unambiguous definition here. The UN has drawn one line out of many potentially valid ones. My point here isn't to argue word semantics. I'm just saying look at what the average person would consider "ultra-processed", whatever their definition (or lack thereof) might be. P.S. I'm not even sure what you consider "ultra-processed bread" is good for people in any case. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6389637/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6389637/
  - elil17 5y ago
    I mean the whole wheat bread I eat everyday is sliced, mass produced, and sweetened a little bit (as are almost all whole wheat breads, regardless of whether they’re mass produced) - I’m pretty sure it’s as good for me as any other whole grain.

itake 5y ago

Why is bread not considered ultra-processed? I am trying to use my common sense here. To create it, you must apply mechanical processing to grind wheat. Chemical processing for the yeast to reacting to the sugars. thermal processing to cook the bread. There is evaporation of the liquid in the bread. This seems like a lot of processes required to create this.

artimaeis 5y ago
Bread could be classified as either processed or ultra-processed depending on ingredients and manufacturing techniques. Ultra-processed bread would probably be made to have a longer shelf life and likely have more additives and preservatives.
fancifalmanima 5y ago
if you buy (from a bakery, probably not from the grocery store) or make bread made from minimally processed to processed flour, water, salt and yeast it would probably be considered minimally processed or processed. When I make homemade bread, those are literally all the ingredients. It has a very different texture, chewiness, and taste from something storebought. They're basically different things. And it doesn't last more than a day or two after cutting it open. If you buy bread made from bleached white flour, sugar (in pretty much any white bread you buy from the supermarket), bread conditioners, preservatives, etc, it's probably considered ultraprocessed. It can also sit in your pantry for weeks.
slothtrop 5y ago
Bread can be ultra-processed. It can also be made with ground wheat grains that don't remove the germ or get bleached.
chithanh 5y ago
> Why is bread not considered ulta-processed? Even traditional bread is certainly highly processed, undergoing mechanical (milling), biochemical (fermentation), and thermal (baking) processing. It doesn't quite meet the definition of ultra-processed though as all these technologies are readily available to unsophisticated producers. I think ultra-processed is some sort of proxy for hyperpalatable here.
- judge2020 5y ago
  Indeed, there's a definition but this just adds the the starting comment's point that "ultra-processed" barely means anything in relation to how healthy something is to eat (and at what quantities).
- legerdemain 5y ago
  Wouldn't most supermarket bread flour by itself meet the definition of ultra-processed, because it is bleached and enriched with micronutrients in a way that almost no consumer can do in the kitchen?
  - CarelessExpert 5y ago
    > because it is bleached and enriched with micronutrients in a way that almost no consumer can do in the kitchen? What gave you that idea? Bleached flour and various additives (such as ascorbic acid) are routinely used in home kitchens: https://thebreadguide.com/using-ascorbic-acid-when-baking/ https://thebreadguide.com/using-ascorbic-acid-when-baking/ What, exactly, do you think goes into making a loaf of mass-produced bread?
    - legerdemain 5y ago
      The bleaching is what makes the flour, and by extension the bread made from it, ultra-processed, even if the bread is baked in a home setting. You misread.
      - CarelessExpert 5y ago
synquid 5y ago
They're processed foods, but not ultra-processed. Generally that means advanced factory processes and chemicals that are only used in industrial settings. Factory made bread is likely to be ultra-processed, however.
- itake 5y ago
  Can you provide an example of a factory process that is only performed in a factory (and not in the kitchen + grocery store, e.g. flour is preprocessed wheat)? bonus points if this process applies to bread making.
  - fanf2 5y ago
    Compare the Chorleywood process to the way you would make bread at home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process
    - CarelessExpert 5y ago
      If I'm reading this right, literally the only difference between this process and the one used in a home kitchen is "intense mechanical working by high-speed mixers, not feasible in a small-scale kitchen". Otherwise the raw materials are the same: > Flour, water, yeast, salt, fat, and, where used, minor ingredients common to many bread-making techniques such as Vitamin C, emulsifiers and enzymes are mechanically mixed for about three minutes. In what way does this represent "processed" food in any material sense? If anything, this sounds like a perfect example of the kind of fear mongering associated with the "processed food" label...
      - vb6sp6 5y ago
        > Otherwise the raw materials are the same Edit: I misread, sorry
        CarelessExpert 5y ago

the__alchemist 5y ago

> Just use your common sense to figure out what average people would intuitively call ultra-processed How do I do that? Are we averaging the opinions of other people, or taking the opinion of the average person? By what metric?

willismichael 5y ago

> I'm pretty darn sure you would not arrive at the conclusion that ordinary people consider bread and most vegetables "ultra-processed foods". That depends on what you mean by bread. The sourdough loaf that I make out of flour straight from the grinder is a far cry from cheap white bread.

elil17 5y ago

Well according to the UN document linked in the article a loaf of bread is ultra-processed

dataflow 5y ago
"Another example of how broadening the initial definition of a highly or ultra-processed food may create confusion is the use of terms that, in themselves, are not precisely defined. For bread, initially defined as such in the NOVA food classification, examples might be the use of terms such as sliced, mass-produced, or sweetened. Their exact interpretation is not self-evident. [...]" [1] Again, there's no unambiguous definition here. The UN has drawn one line out of many potentially valid ones. My point here isn't to argue word semantics. I'm just saying look at what the average person would consider "ultra-processed", whatever their definition (or lack thereof) might be. P.S. I'm not even sure what you consider "ultra-processed bread" is good for people in any case. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6389637/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6389637/
- elil17 5y ago
  I mean the whole wheat bread I eat everyday is sliced, mass produced, and sweetened a little bit (as are almost all whole wheat breads, regardless of whether they’re mass produced) - I’m pretty sure it’s as good for me as any other whole grain.