4 ms·

>> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? >Yes? Surely you understand the logistical problem this brings: if you get given free shit, there m

>> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? >Yes? Surely you understand the logistical problem this brings: if you get given free shit, there must also be a party who is giving free shit. Let's say you live on an island with just one other person. You are both entitled to free shit, but somebody has to put in the work to get the shit. Should the other person work to get his own shit and your shit, or should you work to get your shit and also his shit? Where is the shit going to come from, in a way that doesn't require slavery for others?

claudiulodro 5y ago
I believe the "through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State" line covers that situation.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
myWindoonn 5y ago
Sure. Let's ask for something easier, then; let's only have free stuff which is already in abundance. We aren't living on a remote island; we are living in a society which already has lots of extra stuff which could be given away for free. For example, how can an all-you-can-eat restaurant stay in business if they let everybody eat as much as they (rationally-economically) want to eat, and labor has to be paid? If food is abundant, then the cost of each individual patron's meal is negligible and it becomes a question of whether enough people come through the door to pay for labor.
- agent327 5y ago
  On my hypothetical island, pretty much the only thing in abundance is sand. Everything else you have to work for. Who is going to do that work? Your problem is that you don't see that all that "abundance" of food was grown by people, transported by people, prepared by people, and served by people, and none of them are your slaves. If they had the chance to get their own free shit without having to do all that labour, they totally would. But then who would remain to do the work? The all you can eat restaurant stays in business by charging enough for meals that they can be reasonably sure that you'll won't eat more than the food is worth. However, that doesn't reduce the value of the food to zero. Let's try another thought experiment. In my experience, all you "shit should be free" types assume all value flows from the state. That's wrong; it flows from individuals that are taxed by the state. Why don't you, as an individual, open an all you can eat restaurant where people can eat for free? Why not be the change you want to see?
  - myWindoonn 5y ago
    Your position has been examined to death already: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/234 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/234
    - agent327 5y ago
      Whereas yours hasn't been challenged nearly enough. Your position is only tenable if you are part of an upper class that has others in a lower class working for them, and involuntarily donating the fruits of their labor. In another word, you wish to reintroduce slavery.
      - myWindoonn 5y ago
        Sanity check: You think that the existence of all-you-can-eat restaurants, whose basic balance sheets contradict your assertion that food is not abundant, is classist and promotes slavery?
        agent327 5y ago
        Sanity check: all you can eat restaurants are not free. You still pay for the food. And there's only so much you can eat during opening hours. Your problem is that you presume food is abundant because it just is. Reality is that food is being produced, by people who want to be paid for it. Take away that payment, and they will stop producing.
        myWindoonn 5y ago
        I didn't claim that all-you-can-eats were free, only that they could stay in business despite apparently operating at a loss. This is precisely because the food is much cheaper than a rationalist or economist would predict it to be; it's abundant. Food is abundant because of the Haber process [1] and other industrial-era improvements to food production. Only about 2% of our total labor output is required in order to produce all of our food [2]. The government subsidizes 10% of all food production and purchases [3][4]. If we already can afford to pay 2% of our population to make all of the food, and we already give away 10% of it for free, then it seems like we could reasonably discuss giving away more food for free without disenfranchising farmers. Edit: I just realized that you might be clueless about this entire corner of sociology, so I should tell you about government cheese [5]. WP says, "Government cheese was created to maintain the price of dairy when dairy industry subsidies artificially increased the supply of milk and created a surplus of milk that was then converted into cheese, butter, or powdered milk." In other words, the government put too much money into making food, and gave away the surplus, and this has been happening continuously for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process [2] https://csanr.wsu.edu/we-are-the-98-percent/ https://csanr.wsu.edu/we-are-the-98-percent/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_St... [4] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=14885 https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistic... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese

claudiulodro 5y ago

I believe the "through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State" line covers that situation.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

myWindoonn 5y ago

Sure. Let's ask for something easier, then; let's only have free stuff which is already in abundance. We aren't living on a remote island; we are living in a society which already has lots of extra stuff which could be given away for free. For example, how can an all-you-can-eat restaurant stay in business if they let everybody eat as much as they (rationally-economically) want to eat, and labor has to be paid? If food is abundant, then the cost of each individual patron's meal is negligible and it becomes a question of whether enough people come through the door to pay for labor.

agent327 5y ago
On my hypothetical island, pretty much the only thing in abundance is sand. Everything else you have to work for. Who is going to do that work? Your problem is that you don't see that all that "abundance" of food was grown by people, transported by people, prepared by people, and served by people, and none of them are your slaves. If they had the chance to get their own free shit without having to do all that labour, they totally would. But then who would remain to do the work? The all you can eat restaurant stays in business by charging enough for meals that they can be reasonably sure that you'll won't eat more than the food is worth. However, that doesn't reduce the value of the food to zero. Let's try another thought experiment. In my experience, all you "shit should be free" types assume all value flows from the state. That's wrong; it flows from individuals that are taxed by the state. Why don't you, as an individual, open an all you can eat restaurant where people can eat for free? Why not be the change you want to see?
- myWindoonn 5y ago
  Your position has been examined to death already: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/234 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/234
  - agent327 5y ago
    Whereas yours hasn't been challenged nearly enough. Your position is only tenable if you are part of an upper class that has others in a lower class working for them, and involuntarily donating the fruits of their labor. In another word, you wish to reintroduce slavery.
    - myWindoonn 5y ago
      Sanity check: You think that the existence of all-you-can-eat restaurants, whose basic balance sheets contradict your assertion that food is not abundant, is classist and promotes slavery?
      - agent327 5y ago
        Sanity check: all you can eat restaurants are not free. You still pay for the food. And there's only so much you can eat during opening hours. Your problem is that you presume food is abundant because it just is. Reality is that food is being produced, by people who want to be paid for it. Take away that payment, and they will stop producing.
        myWindoonn 5y ago
        I didn't claim that all-you-can-eats were free, only that they could stay in business despite apparently operating at a loss. This is precisely because the food is much cheaper than a rationalist or economist would predict it to be; it's abundant. Food is abundant because of the Haber process [1] and other industrial-era improvements to food production. Only about 2% of our total labor output is required in order to produce all of our food [2]. The government subsidizes 10% of all food production and purchases [3][4]. If we already can afford to pay 2% of our population to make all of the food, and we already give away 10% of it for free, then it seems like we could reasonably discuss giving away more food for free without disenfranchising farmers. Edit: I just realized that you might be clueless about this entire corner of sociology, so I should tell you about government cheese [5]. WP says, "Government cheese was created to maintain the price of dairy when dairy industry subsidies artificially increased the supply of milk and created a surplus of milk that was then converted into cheese, butter, or powdered milk." In other words, the government put too much money into making food, and gave away the surplus, and this has been happening continuously for decades. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process [2] https://csanr.wsu.edu/we-are-the-98-percent/ https://csanr.wsu.edu/we-are-the-98-percent/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_St... [4] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistics-charting-the-essentials/food-prices-and-spending/?topicId=14885 https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistic... [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese