9 ms·

Sorry, but what's the alternative exactly? Force people who do actually work, produce, create, etc to pay for people who think working is beneath them? Should y

Sorry, but what's the alternative exactly? Force people who do actually work, produce, create, etc to pay for people who think working is beneath them? Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? If you don't want to work for someone else, then start a business. If you don't want to work at all, then figure out how you're going to live. No one is forcing you to do anything.

kuraudo 5y ago
I think the animus is against overworking people for low pay with virtual monopoly protection against labor unions or alternatives, although I'm sure there are those who also advocate for universal basic income. I'm not sure that I believe cut-throat capitalism is the only answer, but I feel your sentiment that the alternative solutions are not well presented at the moment.
- jshen 5y ago
  Most of Europe is a good example of alternatives.
claudiulodro 5y ago
> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? Yes? > Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. > No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. > Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality. > Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment. > Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay. > etc. > https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
- mgh2 5y ago
  *Only if you are American. Good luck if you are not.
- newfriend 5y ago
  None of these things indicate that I should be forced to pay for someone who doesn't want to work.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - decebalus1 5y ago
    I would gladly pay taxes to cover someone who isn't able to work for one reason or another. Because you never know what life gives you. In an unfortunate turn of events, that person can be me or you. I would NOT pay taxes to subsidize Bezos's business so that he can have his space cowboy adventures. That's just the latest and most popular. But the same applies for the 2008 bailouts, Covid stimulus bailouts, corporate tax cuts, corporate tax incentives, corporations paying peanuts forcing people to strain the (already thin) social safety net (see how many fully employed folks are on food stamps) etc.. The latter is perpetual, business as usual and except for some people complaining (the 'radical left') it's regarded as 'the right thing to do'. The former has been beaten out of the American consciousness by decades of rightwing propaganda.
  - decebalus1 5y ago
    Fresh example of what you've been already forced to pay: https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-irs-files-reveal-how-much-the-ultrawealthy-gained-by-shaping-trumps-big-beautiful-tax-cut https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-irs-files-reveal-h...
- agent327 5y ago
  >> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? >Yes? Surely you understand the logistical problem this brings: if you get given free shit, there must also be a party who is giving free shit. Let's say you live on an island with just one other person. You are both entitled to free shit, but somebody has to put in the work to get the shit. Should the other person work to get his own shit and your shit, or should you work to get your shit and also his shit? Where is the shit going to come from, in a way that doesn't require slavery for others?
oo0shiny 5y ago
1. Separate health care from employment. 2. Four day work weeks for the same pay. 3. Tax wealthy corporations fairly to provide more social services for those who can't work. Would be a good start.
srswtf123 5y ago
> Sorry, but what's the alternative exactly? How about not exploiting people? > Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? Seems to work for the very wealthy, celebrities, and so on. Why, precisely, isn't this acceptable for everyone? I'm not against people working. I'm against the wealthy callously exploiting people for grins while they, I dunno, race into space?
- newfriend 5y ago
  Care to explain how I'm paying for the "very wealthy, celebrities, and so on"? Who says they're being callously exploited? Because some company's founder now has hundreds of billions, that entitles random warehouse workers to share profits?
  - zoolily 5y ago
    The warehouse workers worked for it, just like the founder. The distribution of profits between the two isn't a natural law. It's the outcome of a particular regulatory environment that the very wealthy have created over the last half century. As for how you're paying for the wealthy, there are many ways. You're paying for the US government to negotiate with other countries to change their local laws either directly or via treaties to create a similar regulatory environment globally. You're also paying for externalities, like what happens with a fly ash lake or manure lagoon overflows, or the consequences of air pollution.
  - VelkaMorava 5y ago
    > Care to explain how I'm paying for the "very wealthy, celebrities, and so on"? Sure. 1) Look at financial crisis of 2008 and the banks bail out. I have always been taught there is no such thing as a free lunch in economics. Well, apparently you can overleverage yourself, profit insanely on it and when it finally goes tits up, you cry a bit and yell "too big to fail". I have always been taught that risk is the basic principle of capitalism. If your idea or product is bad, no one gives you money for it, you run out of money and go bankrupt. Obviously not if you are a bank or military contractor (looking at you, Boeing). 2) One of the biggest company in my country, owned by our current prime minister Andrej Babiš... oh sorry, it is owned by 2 trust funds which are indirectly owned by Babiš. Anyway, that company is currently asking for 123 million CZK in subsidies. This is a company with a turnover of 161 billion and 3,8 billion CZK profit. Why are they asking for subsidies? Can't they use ~3,24% of their last year's profit? 3) Continuation of previous point, except in US terms. You can strong arm government into giving you subsidies, otherwise you are gonna leave the city / state / country and it's gonna lose jobs. See here for examples: https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/top-100-parents https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/top-100-parents One of the biggest recipients is Tesla. On this note I find it absurd that tax money collected from normal people is paying for a billionaire's wet dream. Notice how I said normal people. Because the rich have ways to steal... damn, sorry - evade... dang, I did it again. Avoid taxes is what I meant. https://itep.org/55-profitable-corporations-zero-corporate-tax/ https://itep.org/55-profitable-corporations-zero-corporate-t... 4) Look at coronavirus V-shaped recovery. It was apparent airlines are gonna be in a bit of a trouble, becaues of the... oh yeah, the global pandemic which put lockdowns in place. Anyway, airlines bought back stock and then asked for bailouts. Which they of course got. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2020/03/18/american-airlines-spent-12-billion-on-stock-buybacks-during-flush-times-now-it-says-it-needs-a-bailout/ https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2020/03/18/amer... I have stopped caring for explaining how you are paying for the very wealthy. If these examples above didn't sway you, nothing will.

kuraudo 5y ago

I think the animus is against overworking people for low pay with virtual monopoly protection against labor unions or alternatives, although I'm sure there are those who also advocate for universal basic income. I'm not sure that I believe cut-throat capitalism is the only answer, but I feel your sentiment that the alternative solutions are not well presented at the moment.

jshen 5y ago
Most of Europe is a good example of alternatives.

claudiulodro 5y ago

> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? Yes? > Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person. > No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. > Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality. > Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment. > Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay. > etc. > https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

mgh2 5y ago
*Only if you are American. Good luck if you are not.
newfriend 5y ago
None of these things indicate that I should be forced to pay for someone who doesn't want to work.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- decebalus1 5y ago
  I would gladly pay taxes to cover someone who isn't able to work for one reason or another. Because you never know what life gives you. In an unfortunate turn of events, that person can be me or you. I would NOT pay taxes to subsidize Bezos's business so that he can have his space cowboy adventures. That's just the latest and most popular. But the same applies for the 2008 bailouts, Covid stimulus bailouts, corporate tax cuts, corporate tax incentives, corporations paying peanuts forcing people to strain the (already thin) social safety net (see how many fully employed folks are on food stamps) etc.. The latter is perpetual, business as usual and except for some people complaining (the 'radical left') it's regarded as 'the right thing to do'. The former has been beaten out of the American consciousness by decades of rightwing propaganda.
- decebalus1 5y ago
  Fresh example of what you've been already forced to pay: https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-irs-files-reveal-how-much-the-ultrawealthy-gained-by-shaping-trumps-big-beautiful-tax-cut https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-irs-files-reveal-h...
agent327 5y ago
>> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? >Yes? Surely you understand the logistical problem this brings: if you get given free shit, there must also be a party who is giving free shit. Let's say you live on an island with just one other person. You are both entitled to free shit, but somebody has to put in the work to get the shit. Should the other person work to get his own shit and your shit, or should you work to get your shit and also his shit? Where is the shit going to come from, in a way that doesn't require slavery for others?

oo0shiny 5y ago

1. Separate health care from employment. 2. Four day work weeks for the same pay. 3. Tax wealthy corporations fairly to provide more social services for those who can't work. Would be a good start.

srswtf123 5y ago

> Sorry, but what's the alternative exactly? How about not exploiting people? > Should you be given free shit simply because you exist? Seems to work for the very wealthy, celebrities, and so on. Why, precisely, isn't this acceptable for everyone? I'm not against people working. I'm against the wealthy callously exploiting people for grins while they, I dunno, race into space?

newfriend 5y ago
Care to explain how I'm paying for the "very wealthy, celebrities, and so on"? Who says they're being callously exploited? Because some company's founder now has hundreds of billions, that entitles random warehouse workers to share profits?
- zoolily 5y ago
  The warehouse workers worked for it, just like the founder. The distribution of profits between the two isn't a natural law. It's the outcome of a particular regulatory environment that the very wealthy have created over the last half century. As for how you're paying for the wealthy, there are many ways. You're paying for the US government to negotiate with other countries to change their local laws either directly or via treaties to create a similar regulatory environment globally. You're also paying for externalities, like what happens with a fly ash lake or manure lagoon overflows, or the consequences of air pollution.
- VelkaMorava 5y ago
  > Care to explain how I'm paying for the "very wealthy, celebrities, and so on"? Sure. 1) Look at financial crisis of 2008 and the banks bail out. I have always been taught there is no such thing as a free lunch in economics. Well, apparently you can overleverage yourself, profit insanely on it and when it finally goes tits up, you cry a bit and yell "too big to fail". I have always been taught that risk is the basic principle of capitalism. If your idea or product is bad, no one gives you money for it, you run out of money and go bankrupt. Obviously not if you are a bank or military contractor (looking at you, Boeing). 2) One of the biggest company in my country, owned by our current prime minister Andrej Babiš... oh sorry, it is owned by 2 trust funds which are indirectly owned by Babiš. Anyway, that company is currently asking for 123 million CZK in subsidies. This is a company with a turnover of 161 billion and 3,8 billion CZK profit. Why are they asking for subsidies? Can't they use ~3,24% of their last year's profit? 3) Continuation of previous point, except in US terms. You can strong arm government into giving you subsidies, otherwise you are gonna leave the city / state / country and it's gonna lose jobs. See here for examples: https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/top-100-parents https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/top-100-parents One of the biggest recipients is Tesla. On this note I find it absurd that tax money collected from normal people is paying for a billionaire's wet dream. Notice how I said normal people. Because the rich have ways to steal... damn, sorry - evade... dang, I did it again. Avoid taxes is what I meant. https://itep.org/55-profitable-corporations-zero-corporate-tax/ https://itep.org/55-profitable-corporations-zero-corporate-t... 4) Look at coronavirus V-shaped recovery. It was apparent airlines are gonna be in a bit of a trouble, becaues of the... oh yeah, the global pandemic which put lockdowns in place. Anyway, airlines bought back stock and then asked for bailouts. Which they of course got. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2020/03/18/american-airlines-spent-12-billion-on-stock-buybacks-during-flush-times-now-it-says-it-needs-a-bailout/ https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2020/03/18/amer... I have stopped caring for explaining how you are paying for the very wealthy. If these examples above didn't sway you, nothing will.