4 ms·

The premise doesn’t even make sense, the tree of knowledge is a Bad Thing in the Genesis story. Even if it was a magic mushroom, how could you possibly come to

by pram 5y ago

The premise doesn’t even make sense, the tree of knowledge is a Bad Thing in the Genesis story. Even if it was a magic mushroom, how could you possibly come to the conclusion that it’s being depicted in a positive light?

tk75x 5y ago
Knowledge of good and evil is a "Good Thing", and one interpretation of the reason God put the tree in reach of Adam and Eve is that he wanted them to eventually partake of its fruit, but they did it early and without whatever other prep was necessary. Think of it as a child slowly learning concepts instead of being immediately presented with complex knowledge and not having the necessary foundation to process it. Not sure about the positive light depiction, but I could see hallucinogenics being viewed as something that expands your knowledge/mind especially since people report out of body experiences when using them.
- mandeville 5y ago
  Ditto. Also in traditional doctrine it was good because the fall led to jesus. Look up felix culpa on wikipedia. As for the mushrooms, it's not as if medieval clergy didn't have a good time.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    You can't mention Felix Culpa though without mentioning Original Sin. Like most things in traditional Catholicism, there is a duality and a paradox. You can't get one without the other. Mentioning the Fall as a strictly good thing is simply ridiculous. That does not find any ground in traditional Catholicism, which also believed (and still believes frankly) that all the bad things in life, including the pain of childbirth, disease, sin, and destruction, are directly attributable to the sin of Adam and Eve. Plus, there are several translations of it. The common rendition into English is 'happy fault', which may be too positive. The other translations include 'lucky mistake', 'happy mistake', blessed fall, etc. Note again the duality, the paradox, and that the fundamental noun (fault, mistake, fall) is negative. It's a paradox, a mystery, meant to get you to think deeper, not some stunning endorsement of listening to Satan.
theli0nheart 5y ago
> the tree of knowledge is a Bad Thing in the Genesis story Not at all. I'm certain that it differs between faiths, but in mine (Judaism), the tree of knowledge was not A Bad Thing. Eating the forbidden fruit / fruit of knowledge exposed Adam and Eve to evil things; tarnishing their purity. After they ate the fruit, they awakened. They desired to wear clothes, possess things, have children, etc. What we learn from this is that knowledge is not good or bad; it's how we use it that makes the difference. And from the standpoint of an "awakening" and mystical experience, the connection to psilocybin deserves further study.
- iammisc 5y ago
  Except, this is a christian fresco, and this is not how Christianity interprets the Genesis story. I understand that Judaism was the source religion of Christianity, but the two religions are substantially different. Christianity has very different interpretations of the Old Testament compared to the Jews.
takoid 5y ago
The Tree of Knowledge is not the “bad thing” (sin is a better vocabulary choice) in the book of Genesis. The sin is the defiance of God’s instruction by Adam and Eve avoiding the fruit from the Tree of Life.
amanaplanacanal 5y ago
The gnostic view is that the tree opened people up to the knowledge that the creator of earth was a flawed god, and not the good one up at the top of the heirarchy. In my understanding.
pmoriarty 5y ago
Something else to consider is that some early Christians (like the so-called Gnostics) believed that there was an esoteric (or secret) meaning or teaching in Christianity. The esoteric meanings were often mirror images of the exoteric (or plain/obvious/surface) meanings. So where eating of the Tree of Knowledge might be viewed as "bad" in the exoteric interpretation, in the esoteric interpretation it could be viewed as good. Similar inversions happen with the snake in the Garden of Eden, who is similarly viewed in a negative light in the exoteric interpretation, but as good in the esoteric interpretation. The same thing happens with Judas, and even the creator God himself. I'd encourage reading up on the Gnostics for more details on exactly what those views were.
- 52-6F-62 5y ago
  True, and early Christian cults were often mixed up in offshoots of the mysteries traditions as well. So while the article mixes up which storied tree that image is supposed to represent, there's a real question of whether or not the similarities to the amanita mushroom were intentional or not. When placed in the context of esoteric traditions, it's a worthwhile question.
- Natsu 5y ago
  The heyday of gnosticism was a thousand years or more prior to this fresco, though.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    But the gnostics weren't completely eradicated until much later. The Cathars[1], for instance, weren't defeated until about the time of this fresco. And, anyway, one need not be a gnostic in order to believe there is a hidden side to Christianity. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  The book "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn includes a retelling of genesis in this mirrored sense: the devil has adam and eve convinced that the garden is paradise and there's no need to leave. god has to sneak in to convince eve to eat the apple and become free. (paraphrase from 10 yrs ago, I should pick that book up again...)
tokenpreneur 5y ago
It's not the Tree of Knowledge that is a 'bad thing', but rather Adam and Eve did a bad thing by defying God's command not to eat from that tree.

by pram 5y ago

tk75x 5y ago

Knowledge of good and evil is a "Good Thing", and one interpretation of the reason God put the tree in reach of Adam and Eve is that he wanted them to eventually partake of its fruit, but they did it early and without whatever other prep was necessary. Think of it as a child slowly learning concepts instead of being immediately presented with complex knowledge and not having the necessary foundation to process it. Not sure about the positive light depiction, but I could see hallucinogenics being viewed as something that expands your knowledge/mind especially since people report out of body experiences when using them.

mandeville 5y ago
Ditto. Also in traditional doctrine it was good because the fall led to jesus. Look up felix culpa on wikipedia. As for the mushrooms, it's not as if medieval clergy didn't have a good time.
- iammisc 5y ago
  You can't mention Felix Culpa though without mentioning Original Sin. Like most things in traditional Catholicism, there is a duality and a paradox. You can't get one without the other. Mentioning the Fall as a strictly good thing is simply ridiculous. That does not find any ground in traditional Catholicism, which also believed (and still believes frankly) that all the bad things in life, including the pain of childbirth, disease, sin, and destruction, are directly attributable to the sin of Adam and Eve. Plus, there are several translations of it. The common rendition into English is 'happy fault', which may be too positive. The other translations include 'lucky mistake', 'happy mistake', blessed fall, etc. Note again the duality, the paradox, and that the fundamental noun (fault, mistake, fall) is negative. It's a paradox, a mystery, meant to get you to think deeper, not some stunning endorsement of listening to Satan.

theli0nheart 5y ago

> the tree of knowledge is a Bad Thing in the Genesis story Not at all. I'm certain that it differs between faiths, but in mine (Judaism), the tree of knowledge was not A Bad Thing. Eating the forbidden fruit / fruit of knowledge exposed Adam and Eve to evil things; tarnishing their purity. After they ate the fruit, they awakened. They desired to wear clothes, possess things, have children, etc. What we learn from this is that knowledge is not good or bad; it's how we use it that makes the difference. And from the standpoint of an "awakening" and mystical experience, the connection to psilocybin deserves further study.

iammisc 5y ago
Except, this is a christian fresco, and this is not how Christianity interprets the Genesis story. I understand that Judaism was the source religion of Christianity, but the two religions are substantially different. Christianity has very different interpretations of the Old Testament compared to the Jews.

takoid 5y ago

The Tree of Knowledge is not the “bad thing” (sin is a better vocabulary choice) in the book of Genesis. The sin is the defiance of God’s instruction by Adam and Eve avoiding the fruit from the Tree of Life.

amanaplanacanal 5y ago

The gnostic view is that the tree opened people up to the knowledge that the creator of earth was a flawed god, and not the good one up at the top of the heirarchy. In my understanding.

pmoriarty 5y ago

Something else to consider is that some early Christians (like the so-called Gnostics) believed that there was an esoteric (or secret) meaning or teaching in Christianity. The esoteric meanings were often mirror images of the exoteric (or plain/obvious/surface) meanings. So where eating of the Tree of Knowledge might be viewed as "bad" in the exoteric interpretation, in the esoteric interpretation it could be viewed as good. Similar inversions happen with the snake in the Garden of Eden, who is similarly viewed in a negative light in the exoteric interpretation, but as good in the esoteric interpretation. The same thing happens with Judas, and even the creator God himself. I'd encourage reading up on the Gnostics for more details on exactly what those views were.

52-6F-62 5y ago
True, and early Christian cults were often mixed up in offshoots of the mysteries traditions as well. So while the article mixes up which storied tree that image is supposed to represent, there's a real question of whether or not the similarities to the amanita mushroom were intentional or not. When placed in the context of esoteric traditions, it's a worthwhile question.
Natsu 5y ago
The heyday of gnosticism was a thousand years or more prior to this fresco, though.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  But the gnostics weren't completely eradicated until much later. The Cathars[1], for instance, weren't defeated until about the time of this fresco. And, anyway, one need not be a gnostic in order to believe there is a hidden side to Christianity. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars
jazzyjackson 5y ago
The book "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn includes a retelling of genesis in this mirrored sense: the devil has adam and eve convinced that the garden is paradise and there's no need to leave. god has to sneak in to convince eve to eat the apple and become free. (paraphrase from 10 yrs ago, I should pick that book up again...)

tokenpreneur 5y ago

It's not the Tree of Knowledge that is a 'bad thing', but rather Adam and Eve did a bad thing by defying God's command not to eat from that tree.