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Watching a sunset is a privilege. A kid in a dense urban setting isn’t going to see a sunset. A kid in a third world village wouldn’t think twice about it in be

Watching a sunset is a privilege. A kid in a dense urban setting isn’t going to see a sunset. A kid in a third world village wouldn’t think twice about it in between all their other worries. Technologies and screens democratize access to ideas and knowledge of what could be. There was a golden era when every businessman wasn’t trying to game this system and it was beautiful. We don’t live in that era so screens seem bad. But screens were life altering and eye opening to a middle class kid in India. Not everyone Can afford to camp or trek or take a break year and honestly I’ve met a metric ton of people who have done all of that and I don’t want to spend a minute of my life around them. I have a feeling your instinct might not be accurate here.

bitexploder 5y ago
Our of curiosity, why don't you want to spend time around people who have camped, trekked, or had time off? That seems like a large group of people to exclude from your social circle.
- ramraj07 5y ago
  Just to clarify a bit I wouldn’t consider a break year by itself as a deal breaker, and I love to travel myself. I just have strong opinions on people who do it frequently (twice a year?), vocally, try hard to sound “hardcore” (camping and trekking) and make it part of their identity. I didn’t start that way but just noticed patterns over a decade of meeting such folks. Some of the reasons include: 1. Many are often trying really hard to find meaning in travel, as if a forest or a mountain trek would suddenly change their outlook in life. Correlated, many of the most depressed folks and people who struggle to find their place in life I know almost all universally “like the outdoors” and would rate a trek in a beautiful path as their ideal past-time. 2. They look down at least subconsciously at the “urban” way of life as if they’ve somehow disconnected themselves from that hypocrisy. Like you realize you burned down a few trees personally (the equivalent) by flying to Hawaii right? The general wisdom seems to be that travel will open your mind to new perspectives and tolerance but I’ve not experienced that personally. The folks who travel seem to do it mostly for pleasure, and rarely Appear to have gained any real insight into any worldly process. In this connected age if you want to understand the ramifications of capital punishment in China you don’t need to travel there to know it. In fact you might get a more unbiased picture if you don’t. An analogy here would be like learning science by making a vinegar volcano or that “heavy pendulum to the face” trick - in principle it’s science I guess? And everyone’s happy to do it, but the kids don’t learn much at all, and clearly given the scientific acumen of the American public which grew up with this stuff they haven’t learned much about what science even stands for. Probably the same with travel.
  - bitexploder 5y ago
    Well, I think the appeal of outdoors is certainly very broad. In modern connected society, nature is a great refuge. I think you are conflating a few namely “time in nature”, people who enjoy solitude, and broadening horizons with travel to new places. IDK, I guess I feel, even in my tech and urban circle of friends, there is a great appreciation of nature and that it is pretty healthy. I’m sure some people patch up issues in their life with it. Most of the folks I know aren’t Doing the Instagram, travel, my life is awesome thing. They just go to nature for a nice scene, chill, peace and quiet, read some books, contemplate life. Do it with friends who enjoy it. My take, I love getting deep into nature for solitude and quiet. It’s a forcing function to disconnect. The travel is just a means to new vistas, but we usually drive to places. The point isn’t really to broaden horizons so much as to see new places. I don’t really broadcast my lifestyle. I don’t promote it to others. I just do it. I also enjoy many things only urban and suburban life really offers (martial arts, etc). Anyway, you touch on some good points, but I also think the views are narrow and don’t capture the spirit of why many people are drawn to nature :) Balance in most things tends to lead to a deeper and healthier relationship with those things (nature, travel, etc) over time.
    - ramraj07 5y ago
      From whatever you say I’m sure I’ll get along with you if I meet you in person, so there’s that! I think the most important thing I look for in a genuine person is the complete acknowledgment of all the hypocricies we put up in our lives. Travel etc is just an interesting lightning rod that concentrates such topics (other than dietary choices, but let’s not go there lol). I do definitely judge quickly and summarily. But my thought process is I’m ready to change my opinion on anyone at a moments notice as I learn about them, and I don’t avoid people due to preconceived prejudices, so why not go wild with my judgement? It’s fun, it makes me look for underlying motives, and I’m happy to be wrong more often than not! The moment I say this out loud, I typically don’t keep too many people around, for sure, but I’m not bothered by it that much. The ones that stick around are in the end much more fun for me to hang out with anyways.
owenversteeg 5y ago
>Watching a sunset is a privilege. A kid in a dense urban setting isn’t going to see a sunset. I've seen many sunsets that people like to call "the best" sunset (sunsets at sea on a boat, on mountaintops, in deserts) and some of my favorite sunsets I've seen have actually been in urban areas. The reflections of glass and the sharp angles of the buildings can combine in beautiful ways. Obviously there are popular things like "Manhattanhenge" but if you just walk around and look for a nice angle, you can find something special in many cities. The haze and rough angles of poorer, industrial areas can play with the setting sun in beautiful ways. >Not everyone Can afford to camp or trek or take a break year I've hosted travelers on Couchsurfing and many of my guests had an income, when they were working, of a few dollars per day. They'd budget a pittance for food and plan to couchsurf and hitchhike their way through Europe - and they seem to have a great time doing it. Now, sure, I was in the Netherlands, so not everyone could visit if poor (visa issues keep out many poor countries, but not all - Ukranine, Venezuela, etc can visit visa free.) Even if a visa or a plane ticket is beyond prohibitive, you can travel in your local region. If you're Russian you have access to all the CIS countries, if you're Chinese you have access to most of Asia. Visit those areas and you'll see people traveling en masse on tiny budgets. In Russia especially I've seen many people travel with only money for food - couchsurfing and hitchhiking to get around otherwise. Sure, there are people living hand to mouth and people with dependents that can't do this, but billions can.
- ramraj07 5y ago
  One thing that’s not obvious to first world country folks is that family commitments is a fairly tight albatross around the neck of many people you suggest “just travel”. They can’t afford to take a holiday, probably because the wages are daily, or vacation policies are just stringent, or maybe simply any vacation has to be spent with family both voluntarily and involuntarily instead. I didn’t intend to personally say you need to check your privilege but I have no other way to put it: even your reply seems to be brimming with privilege. It’s not always liquid money, it’s the lack of burdens and commitments, it’s the assurance you have when you know you can go back home and get a job pronto. It’s the lack of bad decisions in a young age some self inflicted some imposed by society and family that closes in on your freedom significantly. These are things you wouldn’t consider if you didn’t experience yourself.

bitexploder 5y ago

Our of curiosity, why don't you want to spend time around people who have camped, trekked, or had time off? That seems like a large group of people to exclude from your social circle.

ramraj07 5y ago
Just to clarify a bit I wouldn’t consider a break year by itself as a deal breaker, and I love to travel myself. I just have strong opinions on people who do it frequently (twice a year?), vocally, try hard to sound “hardcore” (camping and trekking) and make it part of their identity. I didn’t start that way but just noticed patterns over a decade of meeting such folks. Some of the reasons include: 1. Many are often trying really hard to find meaning in travel, as if a forest or a mountain trek would suddenly change their outlook in life. Correlated, many of the most depressed folks and people who struggle to find their place in life I know almost all universally “like the outdoors” and would rate a trek in a beautiful path as their ideal past-time. 2. They look down at least subconsciously at the “urban” way of life as if they’ve somehow disconnected themselves from that hypocrisy. Like you realize you burned down a few trees personally (the equivalent) by flying to Hawaii right? The general wisdom seems to be that travel will open your mind to new perspectives and tolerance but I’ve not experienced that personally. The folks who travel seem to do it mostly for pleasure, and rarely Appear to have gained any real insight into any worldly process. In this connected age if you want to understand the ramifications of capital punishment in China you don’t need to travel there to know it. In fact you might get a more unbiased picture if you don’t. An analogy here would be like learning science by making a vinegar volcano or that “heavy pendulum to the face” trick - in principle it’s science I guess? And everyone’s happy to do it, but the kids don’t learn much at all, and clearly given the scientific acumen of the American public which grew up with this stuff they haven’t learned much about what science even stands for. Probably the same with travel.
- bitexploder 5y ago
  Well, I think the appeal of outdoors is certainly very broad. In modern connected society, nature is a great refuge. I think you are conflating a few namely “time in nature”, people who enjoy solitude, and broadening horizons with travel to new places. IDK, I guess I feel, even in my tech and urban circle of friends, there is a great appreciation of nature and that it is pretty healthy. I’m sure some people patch up issues in their life with it. Most of the folks I know aren’t Doing the Instagram, travel, my life is awesome thing. They just go to nature for a nice scene, chill, peace and quiet, read some books, contemplate life. Do it with friends who enjoy it. My take, I love getting deep into nature for solitude and quiet. It’s a forcing function to disconnect. The travel is just a means to new vistas, but we usually drive to places. The point isn’t really to broaden horizons so much as to see new places. I don’t really broadcast my lifestyle. I don’t promote it to others. I just do it. I also enjoy many things only urban and suburban life really offers (martial arts, etc). Anyway, you touch on some good points, but I also think the views are narrow and don’t capture the spirit of why many people are drawn to nature :) Balance in most things tends to lead to a deeper and healthier relationship with those things (nature, travel, etc) over time.
  - ramraj07 5y ago
    From whatever you say I’m sure I’ll get along with you if I meet you in person, so there’s that! I think the most important thing I look for in a genuine person is the complete acknowledgment of all the hypocricies we put up in our lives. Travel etc is just an interesting lightning rod that concentrates such topics (other than dietary choices, but let’s not go there lol). I do definitely judge quickly and summarily. But my thought process is I’m ready to change my opinion on anyone at a moments notice as I learn about them, and I don’t avoid people due to preconceived prejudices, so why not go wild with my judgement? It’s fun, it makes me look for underlying motives, and I’m happy to be wrong more often than not! The moment I say this out loud, I typically don’t keep too many people around, for sure, but I’m not bothered by it that much. The ones that stick around are in the end much more fun for me to hang out with anyways.

owenversteeg 5y ago

>Watching a sunset is a privilege. A kid in a dense urban setting isn’t going to see a sunset. I've seen many sunsets that people like to call "the best" sunset (sunsets at sea on a boat, on mountaintops, in deserts) and some of my favorite sunsets I've seen have actually been in urban areas. The reflections of glass and the sharp angles of the buildings can combine in beautiful ways. Obviously there are popular things like "Manhattanhenge" but if you just walk around and look for a nice angle, you can find something special in many cities. The haze and rough angles of poorer, industrial areas can play with the setting sun in beautiful ways. >Not everyone Can afford to camp or trek or take a break year I've hosted travelers on Couchsurfing and many of my guests had an income, when they were working, of a few dollars per day. They'd budget a pittance for food and plan to couchsurf and hitchhike their way through Europe - and they seem to have a great time doing it. Now, sure, I was in the Netherlands, so not everyone could visit if poor (visa issues keep out many poor countries, but not all - Ukranine, Venezuela, etc can visit visa free.) Even if a visa or a plane ticket is beyond prohibitive, you can travel in your local region. If you're Russian you have access to all the CIS countries, if you're Chinese you have access to most of Asia. Visit those areas and you'll see people traveling en masse on tiny budgets. In Russia especially I've seen many people travel with only money for food - couchsurfing and hitchhiking to get around otherwise. Sure, there are people living hand to mouth and people with dependents that can't do this, but billions can.

ramraj07 5y ago
One thing that’s not obvious to first world country folks is that family commitments is a fairly tight albatross around the neck of many people you suggest “just travel”. They can’t afford to take a holiday, probably because the wages are daily, or vacation policies are just stringent, or maybe simply any vacation has to be spent with family both voluntarily and involuntarily instead. I didn’t intend to personally say you need to check your privilege but I have no other way to put it: even your reply seems to be brimming with privilege. It’s not always liquid money, it’s the lack of burdens and commitments, it’s the assurance you have when you know you can go back home and get a job pronto. It’s the lack of bad decisions in a young age some self inflicted some imposed by society and family that closes in on your freedom significantly. These are things you wouldn’t consider if you didn’t experience yourself.