11 ms·

So much negativity. Just here to report that I am a happy Firefox user, no complaints here. Thank you Mozilla for making a browser that respects me.

by brink 5y ago

warabe 5y ago
This, 100% uBlock works best in Firefox, and that is enough reason to keep using Firefox.
- afterburner 5y ago
  Why, what happens to uBlock on chrome?
  - warabe 5y ago
    please refer to the following article by gorhill. https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
FiveOhThree 5y ago
I'd feel a lot more 'respected' if they didn't keep forcing unwanted UI changes on me.
- jseigj43 5y ago
  If UI changes needed everyone's approval, we would still be looking like a 1990's browser.
  - FiveOhThree 5y ago
    True, but if you're running a beta test and the feedback is negative, you can't be surprised that people don't feel "respected" when you decide to push the change anyway.
    - alpaca128 5y ago
      Every UI change has negative feedback to some degree because a part of the user base just doesn't like change. Overall FF is just as usable as the decade before in my opinion. And I kind of like the new tab design. The old super rounded tabs looked great for a while but it was time for a change. I'm not a designer, but in my experience it helps to change up user interfaces now and then. However I wish we as users had more control over that. Color themes are not enough.
      - baud147258 5y ago
        > it was time for a change… it helps to change up user interfaces now and then Why? I mean if users are used to the interface, can use without any friction and there's no real need to, why change it just for the heck of it?
      - account42 5y ago
        > because a part of the user base just doesn't like change So don't force them to change? Or has Mozilla really forgotten that they got their users by making the most customizable browser in the first place?
  - _-david-_ 5y ago
    For me it is not so much they change the ui, it is that they changed the ui like 2 or 3 times in the last like 5 years.
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    Would that be so bad? Netscape Navigator 4.6 circa 1999: https://ia902901.us.archive.org/21/items/netscapecommunicator4.6en-gb99124/screen.jpg https://ia902901.us.archive.org/21/items/netscapecommunicato... Twenty three years of churn has brought what UX benefits exactly? Hiding the protocol, hiding details about secure connections, hiding the status bar, hiding the text on tiny buttons, hiding the menus: https://mk0ghacksnety2pjrgh8.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/firefox-91-esr.png https://mk0ghacksnety2pjrgh8.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/upload... and for what? Optimising for people on 1366x768 laptops and people who don't want to do very much but search and click one result?
    - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
      Judging by my coworkers and relatives, I don't think many users care that much about the screen real estate. Those of us who do customize the hell out of the browser chrome anyway. Firefox 2 looked fine in my opinion, I would be happy if they just kept it as it was back then.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    I see no problem with that. I downloaded the most recent version of Netscape Navigator a few days ago and while it's unusable for HTTPS websites, plain HTTP browsing is quite pleasant and surprisingly fast (even though it uses only one core). What is particularly nice is the SERP page of Google - very tidy and without any ads.
  - wintermutestwin 5y ago
    Changing menu item names and locations is just stupid. A month later and I am still looking for "Undo Close Tab." Was it really that important to change the name to "Reopen Closed Tab?"
    - freebuju 5y ago
      The UI/UX team's salaries need to be justified.
    - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
      Just learn the shortcuts. It's ctrl+shift+t. I've been using it for 16+ years and have no idea how it's called now, or how it was called before. ctrl+shift+n to reopen the last window.
      - wintermutestwin 5y ago
        If the shortcut isn't listed next to the menu option, I'm never going to learn it unless I need to use it constantly. The top level menu items show the shortcuts but the context menu items don't! Inconsistent! The funny thing is that I just tried to find the "shortcuts" list for Firefox and is is nowhere to be found in their menu or in Preferences! Do I need to find it on some webpage?!?
  - account42 5y ago
    Where do I sign up for that browser? When it comes to UI, less change is better.
- SkyMarshal 5y ago
  You mean like most major platforms do from time to time, even FOSS ones like Gnome? With most things, if you want to completely avoid eventual, inevitable UI changes, you need to just never upgrade.
  - FiveOhThree 5y ago
    The new "chunky" layout and UI elements are not really an improvement, and a lot of users have been unhappy with this. Despite plentiful feedback about this during beta testing Mozilla have basically opted to force it through anyway. UI changes in general are something to expect, but if you're just going to disregard user feedback then you can't claim to respect users.
    - jamienicol 5y ago
      Equally a lot of users are happy with it. Should those users have been disregarded instead?
      - dandellion 5y ago
        If that many users are happy why does it keep losing market share? Personally every other release they remove features I like and make arbitrary UI changes. The only reason I'm still complaining and not using something else is because I don't like the alternatives either.
        jamienicol 5y ago
        Its losing market share long predates recent UI changes. UI changes are completely and utterly irrelevant to that. I was just pointing out that the grandparent was conflating their opinion being ignored with all users' opinions being ignored
      - FiveOhThree 5y ago
        It's a good way to further push away a chunk of your userbase. They're moving towards a touch-friendly UI, but a lot of us just want a compact desktop app that doesn't waste screen space with excessive padding. The proper solution to this would be to have different modes if this is so critical. To their credit they did put in a "compact" mode after beta, but this is explicitly "unsupported" and even then still has more padding than "large" mode in the old UI.
have_faith 5y ago
I certainly have complaints but I'm still a happy FF user. What I get for free, a powerful open modern web browser, is more than worth the price of admission.
Someone1234 5y ago
"There are only two kinds of browsers: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses" -- Paraphrase Bjarne Stroustrup Plus for Firefox to grow in popularity/stay relevant you need people to care, and you need the browser to improve. Complaining is better than silence in that context.
- account42 5y ago
  While it is true that most things that get used have people with grievances, using that as an argument to dismiss complaints is not productive. > Plus for Firefox to grow in popularity/stay relevant you need people to care Yes, and people care more when the browser developers care about them. Mozilla is intent on showing that only their design vision matters and customizability will go as soon as it slightly inconveniences them. > and you need the browser to improve But not all changes are an improvement.
declnz 5y ago
Yes! I always open the HN comments for Firefox release notes, knowing I'll read a long list of negativity (and much is fair)... but somehow I'm still a happy, thankful user since (almost) day #1. Thank you FF team!
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > a long list of negativity I am a Firefox user since Firefox 4 (2011). The thing is, that negativity was not there prior to 2017. I'm guessing they are making the assumption that if they keep approximating towards a Chrome clone, that it will somehow reduce the friction of new users joining. This a colossal strategy mistake from corporate/product people. They cannot compete with Chrome/Edge on a massively unleveled playing field. They either have some giant corporate deal to come pre installed on devices other than linux distros or they accept that it will be a niche browser that wins users over by having killer features privacy/foss ethos etc. The decision of removing things that were previously customizable or remove features because only a few hundreds of thousands of people use, is alienating users. In the discussions I always read Mozilla staff arguing that this is a vocal minority but the reality is that irrespective of which statistics you look at they lost a huge chunk of marketshare last year. The way they are refusing to engage with the community on this matter is creating a lot of frustration. WONTFIX is pretty much a meme in Bugzilla at this point. Firefox needs to refocus on being Firefox instead of half-trying to compete with other browsers. We need browser diversity and we absolutely need non chromium browsers in particular. I hope they will turn this around and engage with the community and user voice.
  - ikerdanzel 5y ago
    They not just lost a few hundred Ks of users, they lost a huge chunk of evangelist. And worst than that, turning into anti-evangelist. I am that and so do many of my colleagues. I believe this is a trend though not many people willing to mention it. So seeing firefox dropped significant market share since 2017-ish to some reflect what we anti-evangelist are doing "unconsciously". This is what happen when the company decide to go with some smart-alec UI/UX designers that didn't do much market feedback but trusting their own instinct. Probably Jonny Ives wanna be.
acidburnNSA 5y ago
Seconded. Firefox has given me joy since 1.0.
- antb123 5y ago
  Phoenix for me.. 2002ish... I figured out if I renamed the executable iexplore.exe the company's antivirus scanner would let me run it instead of ie.
systemvoltage 5y ago
Why is negativity bad?
DavideNL 5y ago
Agreed, i’m also a happy FF user… The satisfied users don’t post comments as much i assume. Haters gonna hate, that’s just how it is.
- bbarnett 5y ago
  Computing UIs initially changed for two reasons. The first? Newer display technology and processing power, allowed for more complex menus, decision trees, and visual effects/feedback. The second? Computing was new, and we were still learning how to build basic, usable UIs. Yet ever UI change distracts, causes lag for users, and the above two points are long factored in. No one needs a fork to change. No one needs their remote control's volume button to change. Worse, no one need it to change from one day to the next, on a weekly or even yearly basis. Many users would be beyond overjoyed, if their browser UI didn't change for the rest of their life. The back button doesn't need to move, become something else, leap from the top to bottom of the window, look wildly different as a default, behave differently. Worse, almost every UI change I've seen in Firefox in the last decade, has been tiny little tweaks without any real value for the end user, yet alienated people. And worse, forced on people. Way to keep market share. Firefox could be #1 again, simply by firing every UI person, hiring developers with that cash, and just optimise, merge in new web standards (without creating or taking part in them), and fix bugs.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    I completely agree with your comments - but I am still grateful for Firefox, in spite of these user-hostile UI changes.
    - bbarnett 5y ago
      My feelings are actually fairly close here. But I feel I must be critical, and loudly, else firefox may disappear. It is criticism born from love.
- ksec 5y ago
  >Haters gonna hate, that’s just how it is. I think that is the wrong end of the stick. People complain about Firefox not because they hate it. They complain because they care. It is the same thing with Apple or in fact any other brands. They want it to be better, they want to come back or keep using Firefox. And they want more people to use it ( for one reason or another ). So the saying good there is no such thing as bad publicity. Firefox still getting the upvote to front page or being complained is a good sign many user or potential user still give a damn. I still love Firefox, I just dislike Mozilla's management.
wayneftw 5y ago
On the contrary - HN articles about Firefox are always overrun by positively breathless supporters of Firefox and nothing is different here today. The real negativity can be seen in the market that largely rejected this garbage browser.
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  Or the fact that Google and Microsoft used their monopoly power and dark patterns to do it. Google asked every Firefox user to 'upgrade' to Chrome on all their properties, didn't work as hard to ensure Firefox compatibility leading to worse performance, and bundled Chrome with all kinds of stuff like Adobe Flash updates for Firefox to trick users into installing it (I uninstalled it from my Mom's PC 4 times). Microsoft resets default browser preferences or 'suggests' you switch to Edge for better insert random thing here pretty regularly as well. Mozilla has no such monopoly position to leverage.
  - wayneftw 5y ago
    And yet, people find their way to install all sorts of other programs like Chrome, Discord, Slack or Steam even though Microsoft includes some competing programs by default in the start menu.
beeboop 5y ago
Same. Works perfect for me. It uses way more battery life on my M1 Macbook Air than Safari, which I wish wasn't the case. But I refuse to use Chrome because of Google's awful privacy track record.

So much negativity. Just here to report that I am a happy Firefox user, no complaints here. Thank you Mozilla for making a browser that respects me.

by brink 5y ago

So much negativity. Just here to report that I am a happy Firefox user, no complaints here. Thank you Mozilla for making a browser that respects me.

warabe 5y ago

This, 100% uBlock works best in Firefox, and that is enough reason to keep using Firefox.

afterburner 5y ago
Why, what happens to uBlock on chrome?
- warabe 5y ago
  please refer to the following article by gorhill. https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...

FiveOhThree 5y ago

I'd feel a lot more 'respected' if they didn't keep forcing unwanted UI changes on me.

jseigj43 5y ago
If UI changes needed everyone's approval, we would still be looking like a 1990's browser.
- FiveOhThree 5y ago
  True, but if you're running a beta test and the feedback is negative, you can't be surprised that people don't feel "respected" when you decide to push the change anyway.
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    Every UI change has negative feedback to some degree because a part of the user base just doesn't like change. Overall FF is just as usable as the decade before in my opinion. And I kind of like the new tab design. The old super rounded tabs looked great for a while but it was time for a change. I'm not a designer, but in my experience it helps to change up user interfaces now and then. However I wish we as users had more control over that. Color themes are not enough.
    - baud147258 5y ago
      > it was time for a change… it helps to change up user interfaces now and then Why? I mean if users are used to the interface, can use without any friction and there's no real need to, why change it just for the heck of it?
    - account42 5y ago
      > because a part of the user base just doesn't like change So don't force them to change? Or has Mozilla really forgotten that they got their users by making the most customizable browser in the first place?
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  For me it is not so much they change the ui, it is that they changed the ui like 2 or 3 times in the last like 5 years.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  Would that be so bad? Netscape Navigator 4.6 circa 1999: https://ia902901.us.archive.org/21/items/netscapecommunicator4.6en-gb99124/screen.jpg https://ia902901.us.archive.org/21/items/netscapecommunicato... Twenty three years of churn has brought what UX benefits exactly? Hiding the protocol, hiding details about secure connections, hiding the status bar, hiding the text on tiny buttons, hiding the menus: https://mk0ghacksnety2pjrgh8.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/firefox-91-esr.png https://mk0ghacksnety2pjrgh8.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/upload... and for what? Optimising for people on 1366x768 laptops and people who don't want to do very much but search and click one result?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
    Judging by my coworkers and relatives, I don't think many users care that much about the screen real estate. Those of us who do customize the hell out of the browser chrome anyway. Firefox 2 looked fine in my opinion, I would be happy if they just kept it as it was back then.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  I see no problem with that. I downloaded the most recent version of Netscape Navigator a few days ago and while it's unusable for HTTPS websites, plain HTTP browsing is quite pleasant and surprisingly fast (even though it uses only one core). What is particularly nice is the SERP page of Google - very tidy and without any ads.
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  Changing menu item names and locations is just stupid. A month later and I am still looking for "Undo Close Tab." Was it really that important to change the name to "Reopen Closed Tab?"
  - freebuju 5y ago
    The UI/UX team's salaries need to be justified.
  - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
    Just learn the shortcuts. It's ctrl+shift+t. I've been using it for 16+ years and have no idea how it's called now, or how it was called before. ctrl+shift+n to reopen the last window.
    - wintermutestwin 5y ago
      If the shortcut isn't listed next to the menu option, I'm never going to learn it unless I need to use it constantly. The top level menu items show the shortcuts but the context menu items don't! Inconsistent! The funny thing is that I just tried to find the "shortcuts" list for Firefox and is is nowhere to be found in their menu or in Preferences! Do I need to find it on some webpage?!?
- account42 5y ago
  Where do I sign up for that browser? When it comes to UI, less change is better.
SkyMarshal 5y ago
You mean like most major platforms do from time to time, even FOSS ones like Gnome? With most things, if you want to completely avoid eventual, inevitable UI changes, you need to just never upgrade.
- FiveOhThree 5y ago
  The new "chunky" layout and UI elements are not really an improvement, and a lot of users have been unhappy with this. Despite plentiful feedback about this during beta testing Mozilla have basically opted to force it through anyway. UI changes in general are something to expect, but if you're just going to disregard user feedback then you can't claim to respect users.
  - jamienicol 5y ago
    Equally a lot of users are happy with it. Should those users have been disregarded instead?
    - dandellion 5y ago
      If that many users are happy why does it keep losing market share? Personally every other release they remove features I like and make arbitrary UI changes. The only reason I'm still complaining and not using something else is because I don't like the alternatives either.
      - jamienicol 5y ago
        Its losing market share long predates recent UI changes. UI changes are completely and utterly irrelevant to that. I was just pointing out that the grandparent was conflating their opinion being ignored with all users' opinions being ignored
    - FiveOhThree 5y ago
      It's a good way to further push away a chunk of your userbase. They're moving towards a touch-friendly UI, but a lot of us just want a compact desktop app that doesn't waste screen space with excessive padding. The proper solution to this would be to have different modes if this is so critical. To their credit they did put in a "compact" mode after beta, but this is explicitly "unsupported" and even then still has more padding than "large" mode in the old UI.

have_faith 5y ago

I certainly have complaints but I'm still a happy FF user. What I get for free, a powerful open modern web browser, is more than worth the price of admission.

Someone1234 5y ago

"There are only two kinds of browsers: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses" -- Paraphrase Bjarne Stroustrup Plus for Firefox to grow in popularity/stay relevant you need people to care, and you need the browser to improve. Complaining is better than silence in that context.

account42 5y ago
While it is true that most things that get used have people with grievances, using that as an argument to dismiss complaints is not productive. > Plus for Firefox to grow in popularity/stay relevant you need people to care Yes, and people care more when the browser developers care about them. Mozilla is intent on showing that only their design vision matters and customizability will go as soon as it slightly inconveniences them. > and you need the browser to improve But not all changes are an improvement.

declnz 5y ago

Yes! I always open the HN comments for Firefox release notes, knowing I'll read a long list of negativity (and much is fair)... but somehow I'm still a happy, thankful user since (almost) day #1. Thank you FF team!

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> a long list of negativity I am a Firefox user since Firefox 4 (2011). The thing is, that negativity was not there prior to 2017. I'm guessing they are making the assumption that if they keep approximating towards a Chrome clone, that it will somehow reduce the friction of new users joining. This a colossal strategy mistake from corporate/product people. They cannot compete with Chrome/Edge on a massively unleveled playing field. They either have some giant corporate deal to come pre installed on devices other than linux distros or they accept that it will be a niche browser that wins users over by having killer features privacy/foss ethos etc. The decision of removing things that were previously customizable or remove features because only a few hundreds of thousands of people use, is alienating users. In the discussions I always read Mozilla staff arguing that this is a vocal minority but the reality is that irrespective of which statistics you look at they lost a huge chunk of marketshare last year. The way they are refusing to engage with the community on this matter is creating a lot of frustration. WONTFIX is pretty much a meme in Bugzilla at this point. Firefox needs to refocus on being Firefox instead of half-trying to compete with other browsers. We need browser diversity and we absolutely need non chromium browsers in particular. I hope they will turn this around and engage with the community and user voice.
- ikerdanzel 5y ago
  They not just lost a few hundred Ks of users, they lost a huge chunk of evangelist. And worst than that, turning into anti-evangelist. I am that and so do many of my colleagues. I believe this is a trend though not many people willing to mention it. So seeing firefox dropped significant market share since 2017-ish to some reflect what we anti-evangelist are doing "unconsciously". This is what happen when the company decide to go with some smart-alec UI/UX designers that didn't do much market feedback but trusting their own instinct. Probably Jonny Ives wanna be.

acidburnNSA 5y ago

Seconded. Firefox has given me joy since 1.0.

antb123 5y ago
Phoenix for me.. 2002ish... I figured out if I renamed the executable iexplore.exe the company's antivirus scanner would let me run it instead of ie.

systemvoltage 5y ago

Why is negativity bad?

DavideNL 5y ago

Agreed, i’m also a happy FF user… The satisfied users don’t post comments as much i assume. Haters gonna hate, that’s just how it is.

bbarnett 5y ago
Computing UIs initially changed for two reasons. The first? Newer display technology and processing power, allowed for more complex menus, decision trees, and visual effects/feedback. The second? Computing was new, and we were still learning how to build basic, usable UIs. Yet ever UI change distracts, causes lag for users, and the above two points are long factored in. No one needs a fork to change. No one needs their remote control's volume button to change. Worse, no one need it to change from one day to the next, on a weekly or even yearly basis. Many users would be beyond overjoyed, if their browser UI didn't change for the rest of their life. The back button doesn't need to move, become something else, leap from the top to bottom of the window, look wildly different as a default, behave differently. Worse, almost every UI change I've seen in Firefox in the last decade, has been tiny little tweaks without any real value for the end user, yet alienated people. And worse, forced on people. Way to keep market share. Firefox could be #1 again, simply by firing every UI person, hiring developers with that cash, and just optimise, merge in new web standards (without creating or taking part in them), and fix bugs.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  I completely agree with your comments - but I am still grateful for Firefox, in spite of these user-hostile UI changes.
  - bbarnett 5y ago
    My feelings are actually fairly close here. But I feel I must be critical, and loudly, else firefox may disappear. It is criticism born from love.
ksec 5y ago
>Haters gonna hate, that’s just how it is. I think that is the wrong end of the stick. People complain about Firefox not because they hate it. They complain because they care. It is the same thing with Apple or in fact any other brands. They want it to be better, they want to come back or keep using Firefox. And they want more people to use it ( for one reason or another ). So the saying good there is no such thing as bad publicity. Firefox still getting the upvote to front page or being complained is a good sign many user or potential user still give a damn. I still love Firefox, I just dislike Mozilla's management.

wayneftw 5y ago

On the contrary - HN articles about Firefox are always overrun by positively breathless supporters of Firefox and nothing is different here today. The real negativity can be seen in the market that largely rejected this garbage browser.

JohnTHaller 5y ago
Or the fact that Google and Microsoft used their monopoly power and dark patterns to do it. Google asked every Firefox user to 'upgrade' to Chrome on all their properties, didn't work as hard to ensure Firefox compatibility leading to worse performance, and bundled Chrome with all kinds of stuff like Adobe Flash updates for Firefox to trick users into installing it (I uninstalled it from my Mom's PC 4 times). Microsoft resets default browser preferences or 'suggests' you switch to Edge for better insert random thing here pretty regularly as well. Mozilla has no such monopoly position to leverage.
- wayneftw 5y ago
  And yet, people find their way to install all sorts of other programs like Chrome, Discord, Slack or Steam even though Microsoft includes some competing programs by default in the start menu.

beeboop 5y ago

Same. Works perfect for me. It uses way more battery life on my M1 Macbook Air than Safari, which I wish wasn't the case. But I refuse to use Chrome because of Google's awful privacy track record.