4 ms·

Not surprising seeing how he bought this tank disarmed and was trying to rearm it. Given the strong gun laws in Germany, I think he's lucky to get away with a

by eicnix 5y ago

Not surprising seeing how he bought this tank disarmed and was trying to rearm it. Given the strong gun laws in Germany, I think he's lucky to get away with a fine for illegally acquiring a tank, anti-aircraft cannon, mortar, torpedo as well as an assortment of guns. There is the "Kriegswagfenkontrollgesetz" (law to control weapons of war) that deals with owning and trading these kind of things. Source in German: https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/kiel-panzer-eigentuemer-zu-bewaehrungsstrafe-verurteilt-a-72360fcf-1ce7-4181-a5b9-36c40683a0a7-amp https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/k... Comment on rearming: »Ich wollte den Panzer so herrichten, wie er aus dem Werk kam«, soll F. am 12. Juli 2015 gesagt haben. In einem Telefonat am 12. August 2015 soll ihn ein Gesprächspartner daran erinnert haben, wie er ihn mehrfach darauf hingewiesen habe, den Panzer zu demilitarisieren. »Aber Sie, Herr F., sagten: Einen Teufel werde ich tun«, zitiert der Staatsanwalt aus den Protokollen. Source behind paywall: https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/kiel-panzer-im-keller-was-der-angeklagte-ns-sammler-von-ueber-sein-leben-preisgibt-a-fc1f7db1-7bd2-40f2-8221-c7e3be3e0a34-amp https://www.google.de/amp/s/www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/k...

aixi 5y ago
gun laws are not that strong in Germany actually, they are just strong in the sense that you cannot carry/own without a license, but for collection purposes I'd say they are even lighter than the US' in some aspects. this video by JoergSprave explains it in detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0-J2pYLCvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0-J2pYLCvI
- refurb 5y ago
  Indeed. It’s often the nuances that matter. My understanding is that acquiring a silencer in Europe isn’t much harder than acquiring a firearm (obviously country dependent). While in the US it’s much harder to get a silencer as they fall into a category similar to automatic weapons. And the US laws are very strict for things like tanks and such since they fall under the NFA which again, lumps all these things into a similar category as automatic weapons and even if you’re a cop they’ll put you in prison for violating those laws. https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/former-taneytown-police-chief-pleads-guilty-illegal-transfer-and-possession-machine-gun https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/former-taneytown-police-c...
  - causi 5y ago
    Suppressors are not hard to get in the US. They're just subject to an extra $200 tax stamp.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Harder than Europe though. Basically the same amount of effort as getting a machine gun. Full fingerprints, $200 tax, submit to ATF, wait months, then take possession. And each state can have additional laws that differ from federal laws. CA bans ownership entirely I believe.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      You have to invite a notoriously capricious and hair trigger federal agency into your life, sure less so than an automatic weapon but you still need to put yourself on their radar to some extent. After you've done that the first time $200 a pop isn't that big a deal but a lot of people are unwilling to take the initial plunge of putting their name on that list.
    - doikor 5y ago
      $200 tax is quite crazy though. You can get a cheap suppressor for that (or less). So the "tax" is literally doubling the actual price of a suppressor in the worst case.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Being a licensed hunter near urban areas is enough to have the right to get silencers. E.g. boar hunters in Berlin.
  - doikor 5y ago
    > My understanding is that acquiring a silencer in Europe isn’t much harder than acquiring a firearm (obviously country dependent). True. You don't need any special permits for suppressors at all here in Finland as long as you got a valid permit for the gun it will be installed on. So basically the seller just checks that you actually legally own the gun you say you are going to install it on (nobody actually checks what you install it on)
sparkling 5y ago
> and was trying to rearm it. Where does it say that in the BBC or Spiegel article?
- hef19898 5y ago
  I never heard of that. If he did indeed try, the sentencing is quite light.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    At most this is as legitimate as seizing someone's house because they once sold some pot to a friend in said house. Yeah it's within the letter of the law but it's still dumb and wrong. "Rearming" a 70yo tank is fundamentally a historical restoration project and the kind of people who do it are no hazard to public health. The law was not written for these kinds of people. It was written for people who are actually up to no good. It's pretty clear from patterns of behavior who is arming tanks to have a cool historically accurate tank and who is doing that sort of thing as a means to a more nefarious end. Defending this sentence is only a hair away from defending insane drug sentencing "because the law is the law". The law is dumb and if this were the US I'd say the judge has poor judgement for not using his discretion to hand down a practically nonexistent sentence. I don't know to what extent German judges can influence sentencing.
    - grumblenum 5y ago
      I think the number of people killed in the world each year by personally owned novelty military vehicles is approximately zero. Hundreds of people are killed in the United States every year by unarmed assailants. When will we wake up and pass common-sense karate-chop control?!
      - MereInterest 5y ago
        Please also compare the relative numbers of people with rearmed military vehicles and people with karate-chop capable arms. The important comparison is the conditional probability, not the total numbers.
hef19898 5y ago
The tank had some maintenance from an official German army depot, it seems.
tannhaeuser 5y ago
Posting an AMP link by Spiegel as "German source"? The original source is a dpa article by Carsten Rehder btw.

by eicnix 5y ago

aixi 5y ago

gun laws are not that strong in Germany actually, they are just strong in the sense that you cannot carry/own without a license, but for collection purposes I'd say they are even lighter than the US' in some aspects. this video by JoergSprave explains it in detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0-J2pYLCvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0-J2pYLCvI

refurb 5y ago
Indeed. It’s often the nuances that matter. My understanding is that acquiring a silencer in Europe isn’t much harder than acquiring a firearm (obviously country dependent). While in the US it’s much harder to get a silencer as they fall into a category similar to automatic weapons. And the US laws are very strict for things like tanks and such since they fall under the NFA which again, lumps all these things into a similar category as automatic weapons and even if you’re a cop they’ll put you in prison for violating those laws. https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/former-taneytown-police-chief-pleads-guilty-illegal-transfer-and-possession-machine-gun https://www.justice.gov/usao-md/pr/former-taneytown-police-c...
- causi 5y ago
  Suppressors are not hard to get in the US. They're just subject to an extra $200 tax stamp.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Harder than Europe though. Basically the same amount of effort as getting a machine gun. Full fingerprints, $200 tax, submit to ATF, wait months, then take possession. And each state can have additional laws that differ from federal laws. CA bans ownership entirely I believe.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    You have to invite a notoriously capricious and hair trigger federal agency into your life, sure less so than an automatic weapon but you still need to put yourself on their radar to some extent. After you've done that the first time $200 a pop isn't that big a deal but a lot of people are unwilling to take the initial plunge of putting their name on that list.
  - doikor 5y ago
    $200 tax is quite crazy though. You can get a cheap suppressor for that (or less). So the "tax" is literally doubling the actual price of a suppressor in the worst case.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Being a licensed hunter near urban areas is enough to have the right to get silencers. E.g. boar hunters in Berlin.
- doikor 5y ago
  > My understanding is that acquiring a silencer in Europe isn’t much harder than acquiring a firearm (obviously country dependent). True. You don't need any special permits for suppressors at all here in Finland as long as you got a valid permit for the gun it will be installed on. So basically the seller just checks that you actually legally own the gun you say you are going to install it on (nobody actually checks what you install it on)

sparkling 5y ago

> and was trying to rearm it. Where does it say that in the BBC or Spiegel article?

hef19898 5y ago
I never heard of that. If he did indeed try, the sentencing is quite light.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  At most this is as legitimate as seizing someone's house because they once sold some pot to a friend in said house. Yeah it's within the letter of the law but it's still dumb and wrong. "Rearming" a 70yo tank is fundamentally a historical restoration project and the kind of people who do it are no hazard to public health. The law was not written for these kinds of people. It was written for people who are actually up to no good. It's pretty clear from patterns of behavior who is arming tanks to have a cool historically accurate tank and who is doing that sort of thing as a means to a more nefarious end. Defending this sentence is only a hair away from defending insane drug sentencing "because the law is the law". The law is dumb and if this were the US I'd say the judge has poor judgement for not using his discretion to hand down a practically nonexistent sentence. I don't know to what extent German judges can influence sentencing.
  - grumblenum 5y ago
    I think the number of people killed in the world each year by personally owned novelty military vehicles is approximately zero. Hundreds of people are killed in the United States every year by unarmed assailants. When will we wake up and pass common-sense karate-chop control?!
    - MereInterest 5y ago
      Please also compare the relative numbers of people with rearmed military vehicles and people with karate-chop capable arms. The important comparison is the conditional probability, not the total numbers.

hef19898 5y ago

The tank had some maintenance from an official German army depot, it seems.

tannhaeuser 5y ago

Posting an AMP link by Spiegel as "German source"? The original source is a dpa article by Carsten Rehder btw.