5 ms·

> If Googlers had any collective bargaining power, they wouldn't be getting salary reductions: they would be getting extra expense money for desks, chairs, and

> If Googlers had any collective bargaining power, they wouldn't be getting salary reductions: they would be getting extra expense money for desks, chairs, and ISP upgrades. Since Google already pays the most, where do you threaten to leave to while bargaining?

londons_explore 5y ago
"I'll leave to do a startup, and you'll have to hire some new grad and train them for years till they're as good as me" is a common threat.
- jeswin 5y ago
  At that point, it's better to let the employee go.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    Except that seems to be in the minds of a large chunk of FAANG employees... They can't let them all go. So they give payrises instead
    - sjg007 5y ago
      It's probably cheaper to give them all pay raises. Even if they all left and started startups there will be 1 or 2 that hit it big and probably eat Google's lunch. That will probably happen anyway by an outsider but the odds are less.
peakaboo 5y ago
Not everyone picks jobs based on top salary. I wouldn't work for Google even if they doubled my salary.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > Not everyone picks jobs based on top salary. I wouldn't work for Google even if they doubled my salary. So? I don't really like this kind of non-response response. It's like the guy who joins every conversation to point out that they don't, in fact, own a TV (Onion article, look it up). I mean, sure, there are people who have enough that they won't take a new job for double the money, but they are so few and far between that it doesn't make sense to structure the argument around them. You may not want double your salary, but for every one of you there are a few thousand others who want a nicer house, or better schools for their kids, or nice vacations, or an earlier retirement. When you say you won't even consider doubling your salary because you don't want to work for a perfectly legal company, in reality you are saying that a) you have no one who depends on you and your income for success, and b) you don't care to retire early to do your own thing. You are NOT saying anything about your principles, even though you think you are.
  - eru 5y ago
    You can interpret the comment you are replying to a bit more charitably. Basically, people have concerns other than money. And on the margin, those concerns make differences. (Just like on the margin, extra dollars also add up. Even if the impact of any one extra dollar is very _marginal_.)
  - 3princip 5y ago
    Don't be ridiculous, you're just making assumptions based on your value system. I have children and I've passed on higher paying jobs (perhaps not double but 50%) out of principle. I also wouldn't work for Google whatever the compensation, and there are plenty of people who don't value money above everything else.
    - passivate 5y ago
      We all know people value things other than money, that was not the point. The point here is whether there are a large number of people who would refuse a job Google for 2x their salary. On that specific point, I agree with the parent post, that there aren't that many.
Panini_Jones 5y ago
Google does not already pay the most. In recent years, they've been known to even 'lowball' SWE candidates with no leverage. Source: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Facebook,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Facebook,Microsoft&tr...
- gravypod 5y ago
  Anacdata: My personal comp is on the lower half of the spectrum for my level. Took a small pay cut from the startup I came from. Left for Google because I was tired of proposing changes, having someone else in the org disagree, and then having someone high up say "I talked to my friend at Google and he likes my way better so it's better than yours". Now I'm going to be the Googler and never have to worry about that again.
  - garyfirestorm 5y ago
    But _my friend_ from google likes _my way_ better
  - azornathogron 5y ago
    You think you'll join a giant company and that there will be less need to get organisational buy-in for your proposals than there was in a startup? That's a take I haven't heard before...
    - gravypod 5y ago
      No, I thought that people would have the experience to evaluate my proposals on their merits, not on if they contain buzz words. So far that's been pretty true. :) On the way to launching my first large internal service in the next few weeks.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
biztos 5y ago
That’s not what the threat is supposed to be. The threat is supposed to be that all the engineers will step away from their keyboards and the ginormous money machine will grind to a halt. But since Google pays so much it’d be both really hard to convince people to take the risk, and really easy for the company to replace them. Having employees partake of the money machine via stock is also a factor. I don’t think Google would unionize unless the vast majority of coders worldwide were already active members of the International Brotherhood of Logicians and had already won some big concessions from other FAANGs.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > The threat is supposed to be that all the engineers will step away from their keyboards The problem with threats is the company might call your bluff. You have to be prepared to actually walk away to have real leverage and Google pays well enough that most engineers would probably take reduced pay over walking away. The reason strike tactics worked historically is that the work conditions were actually *that* bad and there was also the component of striking workers threatening scabs.
newsclues 5y ago
The threat of starting a new Google?
eru 5y ago
Google pays well, but not the most. (Unless things have changed recently.)
- ridaj 5y ago
  Who pays the most?
  - coopierez 5y ago
    Prop trading firms pay more, I don't know if they pay the _most_ however.
    - smabie 5y ago
      For front office work, they definitely do pay the most.
      - eru 5y ago
        Though not necessarily per hour. (Ok, probably still per hour. But hours can be quite long.)
        MichaelZuo 5y ago
        A super genius could most likely bargain for a pay/bonus cut and 40 hour weeks for 7 figures easily after a few years of demonstrated performance.
        eru 5y ago
        Yes. Though a super genius also gets special treatment at eg Google and other places. So it's hard to say anything general about their compensation.
        MichaelZuo 5y ago
        Well it’s a sliding scale sort of thing right. A regular ole’ genius could probably negotiate the same for high six figures.
burkaman 5y ago
You don't threaten to leave, the whole point of unions is to attempt to equalize a negotiation when workers can't easily get another job. Dockworkers don't threaten to go work at a competing port, they threaten to stop working and shut down the dock.
emidln 5y ago
Hedge funds and trading firms. Google doesn't pay the most.

londons_explore 5y ago

"I'll leave to do a startup, and you'll have to hire some new grad and train them for years till they're as good as me" is a common threat.

jeswin 5y ago
At that point, it's better to let the employee go.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  Except that seems to be in the minds of a large chunk of FAANG employees... They can't let them all go. So they give payrises instead
  - sjg007 5y ago
    It's probably cheaper to give them all pay raises. Even if they all left and started startups there will be 1 or 2 that hit it big and probably eat Google's lunch. That will probably happen anyway by an outsider but the odds are less.

peakaboo 5y ago

Not everyone picks jobs based on top salary. I wouldn't work for Google even if they doubled my salary.

lelanthran 5y ago
> Not everyone picks jobs based on top salary. I wouldn't work for Google even if they doubled my salary. So? I don't really like this kind of non-response response. It's like the guy who joins every conversation to point out that they don't, in fact, own a TV (Onion article, look it up). I mean, sure, there are people who have enough that they won't take a new job for double the money, but they are so few and far between that it doesn't make sense to structure the argument around them. You may not want double your salary, but for every one of you there are a few thousand others who want a nicer house, or better schools for their kids, or nice vacations, or an earlier retirement. When you say you won't even consider doubling your salary because you don't want to work for a perfectly legal company, in reality you are saying that a) you have no one who depends on you and your income for success, and b) you don't care to retire early to do your own thing. You are NOT saying anything about your principles, even though you think you are.
- eru 5y ago
  You can interpret the comment you are replying to a bit more charitably. Basically, people have concerns other than money. And on the margin, those concerns make differences. (Just like on the margin, extra dollars also add up. Even if the impact of any one extra dollar is very _marginal_.)
- 3princip 5y ago
  Don't be ridiculous, you're just making assumptions based on your value system. I have children and I've passed on higher paying jobs (perhaps not double but 50%) out of principle. I also wouldn't work for Google whatever the compensation, and there are plenty of people who don't value money above everything else.
  - passivate 5y ago
    We all know people value things other than money, that was not the point. The point here is whether there are a large number of people who would refuse a job Google for 2x their salary. On that specific point, I agree with the parent post, that there aren't that many.

Panini_Jones 5y ago

Google does not already pay the most. In recent years, they've been known to even 'lowball' SWE candidates with no leverage. Source: https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Facebook,Microsoft&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Google,Facebook,Microsoft&tr...

gravypod 5y ago
Anacdata: My personal comp is on the lower half of the spectrum for my level. Took a small pay cut from the startup I came from. Left for Google because I was tired of proposing changes, having someone else in the org disagree, and then having someone high up say "I talked to my friend at Google and he likes my way better so it's better than yours". Now I'm going to be the Googler and never have to worry about that again.
- garyfirestorm 5y ago
  But _my friend_ from google likes _my way_ better
- azornathogron 5y ago
  You think you'll join a giant company and that there will be less need to get organisational buy-in for your proposals than there was in a startup? That's a take I haven't heard before...
  - gravypod 5y ago
    No, I thought that people would have the experience to evaluate my proposals on their merits, not on if they contain buzz words. So far that's been pretty true. :) On the way to launching my first large internal service in the next few weeks.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

biztos 5y ago

That’s not what the threat is supposed to be. The threat is supposed to be that all the engineers will step away from their keyboards and the ginormous money machine will grind to a halt. But since Google pays so much it’d be both really hard to convince people to take the risk, and really easy for the company to replace them. Having employees partake of the money machine via stock is also a factor. I don’t think Google would unionize unless the vast majority of coders worldwide were already active members of the International Brotherhood of Logicians and had already won some big concessions from other FAANGs.

Mikeb85 5y ago
> The threat is supposed to be that all the engineers will step away from their keyboards The problem with threats is the company might call your bluff. You have to be prepared to actually walk away to have real leverage and Google pays well enough that most engineers would probably take reduced pay over walking away. The reason strike tactics worked historically is that the work conditions were actually *that* bad and there was also the component of striking workers threatening scabs.

newsclues 5y ago

The threat of starting a new Google?

eru 5y ago

Google pays well, but not the most. (Unless things have changed recently.)

ridaj 5y ago
Who pays the most?
- coopierez 5y ago
  Prop trading firms pay more, I don't know if they pay the _most_ however.
  - smabie 5y ago
    For front office work, they definitely do pay the most.
    - eru 5y ago
      Though not necessarily per hour. (Ok, probably still per hour. But hours can be quite long.)
      - MichaelZuo 5y ago
        A super genius could most likely bargain for a pay/bonus cut and 40 hour weeks for 7 figures easily after a few years of demonstrated performance.
        eru 5y ago
        Yes. Though a super genius also gets special treatment at eg Google and other places. So it's hard to say anything general about their compensation.
        MichaelZuo 5y ago
        Well it’s a sliding scale sort of thing right. A regular ole’ genius could probably negotiate the same for high six figures.

burkaman 5y ago

You don't threaten to leave, the whole point of unions is to attempt to equalize a negotiation when workers can't easily get another job. Dockworkers don't threaten to go work at a competing port, they threaten to stop working and shut down the dock.

emidln 5y ago

Hedge funds and trading firms. Google doesn't pay the most.