10 ms·

I think this is making a whole lot of out nothing, or at least not much. Google would determine your pay based on your work location, regardless of whether that

I think this is making a whole lot of out nothing, or at least not much. Google would determine your pay based on your work location, regardless of whether that's your home or the office. As a result people that lived far from the office in a typically less expensive area could see their pay drop.

Sacho 5y ago
Gitlab implements this compensation model openly(to the point where there is a calculator for it!) - I don't remember how well it was received when it was first announced, but looks like Google is applying a similar idea.
- zrail 5y ago
  The calculator is no longer public.
  - smnrchrds 5y ago
    That's a shame. When did they make it non-public?
    - licebmi__at__ 5y ago
      https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/commit/4293020d789359ad8134a054225127f3e0b32a58 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/commit/429302...
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  I don’t think the calculator is public. It used to be and last time I tried it the results were terrible for my area I guess because there just aren’t any other technologists here so nothing to compare to - but that doesn’t say anything about me or how much I’m worth! Also when you looked in the data file you could see little pockets of higher paying areas - I guess if they can’t recruit you they create a little higher paying bubble for you. So I don’t think it works well and it’s also possibly open to distortion.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    My sense from looking at it a couple of times was that there was more and more "exception handling" over time, primarily to handle relatively high CoL places, e.g. nice college towns, in generally cheap rural locales.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Right - and I guess the way you got an exception made was by making a fuss… which means it’s just as personality driven as before and isn’t really the open system it thinks it is.
bsagdiyev 5y ago
Exactly. When I left California I fully expected my pay to get reduced, I’m not going to blind myself and think that it wouldn’t happen because of my move to a lower cost of living area. I’m lucky that that wasn’t the case but it was a pleasant surprise more than something I expected and demanded.
- Jach 5y ago
  I still think everyone should fight against it if they think it's going to happen, whether they've come to terms with it or not. I heard about an employee who moved to Canada, got her manager to agree to no pay cut, but HR went over the manager's head. Certainly a rage-quit moment if it had been me, though of course international concerns were a factor. Admittedly it's easier to fight if your move is domestic. "Cost of living" is personal and largely not the company's business. If my spend is $X per month, it's $X, it doesn't matter what portion of that goes to rent or mortgage. When circumstances change that shifts the portion of housing, most people don't pocket the savings, but instead just shift it to other things. Sometimes even for better housing. It's a rare individual who will save instead, and even rarer to unnecessarily subject oneself to lower quality something for savings, like the SF Google employee living in his car, driving his cost of living as far as rent was concerned to $0, cheaper even than the corn fields of Iowa. But companies will keep trying to do these "adjustments" so long as they keep getting away with it. Consider fighting it, and finding out how valuable you really are in the process. Similarly with WFH "adjustments" -- given intent for a coming pay reduction, you should instead counter with a demand for a pay increase, because you're no longer contributing to the costs of having an office space.
  - foobar2021 5y ago
    If you replace “cost of living” with “living wage” the mainstream opinion very much wants your salary to be the company’s business. Why this isn’t owned by some level (state, local) of government I have no idea.
    - Jach 5y ago
      My salary is already the company's business, they're paying it. What's worth fighting against is the idea that how I spend (or save) that salary, and worse how some average of how everyone independent of job and salary in a geographical area spends their money, should directly influence the salary itself.
dqpb 5y ago
Do you think they should reduce salary for people who have paid off their mortgage? Those people also have lower cost of living.
- dqpb 5y ago
  I try to avoid commenting on downvotes, but I’m really curious to know. For those downvoting me, what is your job?
- cableshaft 5y ago
  How about people living with multiple roommates, or renting out part of their house (I used to live in one of those situations)? Those people have a lower cost of living as well compared to others in the area. Or does it only count if you're talking someone's sole and primary mortgage and where that's physically located? Even mortgages can vary wildly. In my city I can buy a condo for $100k or I could buy a mansion for 5 million dollars. My cost of living will vary drastically depending on what I decide to get.
  - dqpb 5y ago
    Exactly!
- throwaway_qcjal 5y ago
  The reality is that cost of living is really just a proxy in these conversations, really what we're talking about is the market wage for "premium" developers. I imagine over time remote developers will converge to a single market, but that it will take time, since there isn't as many opportunities for remote developers now there's not much pressure to move towards competing against remote offers. E.g., if I go to my employer and ask for a higher wage working remotely their likely response would be good luck getting a similar remote position. But as more remote opportunities open up you'll likely see more competition. If there's enough remote positions and they're generally seen as equally desirable as in person positions we might even see everywhere going to a single market within national boundaries regardless of remote or in person, which would be quite interesting.
usaar333 5y ago
It's a weird policy though. If I'm remote, why does my location matter to Google?
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  Because they no longer have to incentivize you to move to a very high cost of living location.
  - usaar333 5y ago
    Exactly, so why have disparate pay by location? I'd expect all remote workers to get the same salary, perhaps a bit lower than onsite workers to account for productivity loss.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
      I'd still expect valuable employees to flock to population centers (e.g. for education), you want to remain competitive in those areas.
      - usaar333 5y ago
        In effect though, this is location pay discrimination which only makes sense if you believe the remote people have viable onsite alternatives where they are that drives their market salary. If they are only going to work remotely (i.e. in a remote market), I don't see how this works steady-state. If there's no benefit to having an employee in SF vs. Austin, I'll just start paying a premium to non-SF residents and pull away non-SF talent from Google. Eventually, this should all equalize to remote workers being paid equally.
gorbachev 5y ago
I'd bet a lot of money this doesn't apply to executives, however.
- dvtrn 5y ago
  Since you asked: https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/google-exec-remote-work-wfh-urs-hlzle-employees-complaints.html https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/google-exec-remote-work-wfh...

Sacho 5y ago

Gitlab implements this compensation model openly(to the point where there is a calculator for it!) - I don't remember how well it was received when it was first announced, but looks like Google is applying a similar idea.

zrail 5y ago
The calculator is no longer public.
- smnrchrds 5y ago
  That's a shame. When did they make it non-public?
  - licebmi__at__ 5y ago
    https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/commit/4293020d789359ad8134a054225127f3e0b32a58 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/-/commit/429302...
chrisseaton 5y ago
I don’t think the calculator is public. It used to be and last time I tried it the results were terrible for my area I guess because there just aren’t any other technologists here so nothing to compare to - but that doesn’t say anything about me or how much I’m worth! Also when you looked in the data file you could see little pockets of higher paying areas - I guess if they can’t recruit you they create a little higher paying bubble for you. So I don’t think it works well and it’s also possibly open to distortion.
- ghaff 5y ago
  My sense from looking at it a couple of times was that there was more and more "exception handling" over time, primarily to handle relatively high CoL places, e.g. nice college towns, in generally cheap rural locales.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    Right - and I guess the way you got an exception made was by making a fuss… which means it’s just as personality driven as before and isn’t really the open system it thinks it is.

bsagdiyev 5y ago

Exactly. When I left California I fully expected my pay to get reduced, I’m not going to blind myself and think that it wouldn’t happen because of my move to a lower cost of living area. I’m lucky that that wasn’t the case but it was a pleasant surprise more than something I expected and demanded.

Jach 5y ago
I still think everyone should fight against it if they think it's going to happen, whether they've come to terms with it or not. I heard about an employee who moved to Canada, got her manager to agree to no pay cut, but HR went over the manager's head. Certainly a rage-quit moment if it had been me, though of course international concerns were a factor. Admittedly it's easier to fight if your move is domestic. "Cost of living" is personal and largely not the company's business. If my spend is $X per month, it's $X, it doesn't matter what portion of that goes to rent or mortgage. When circumstances change that shifts the portion of housing, most people don't pocket the savings, but instead just shift it to other things. Sometimes even for better housing. It's a rare individual who will save instead, and even rarer to unnecessarily subject oneself to lower quality something for savings, like the SF Google employee living in his car, driving his cost of living as far as rent was concerned to $0, cheaper even than the corn fields of Iowa. But companies will keep trying to do these "adjustments" so long as they keep getting away with it. Consider fighting it, and finding out how valuable you really are in the process. Similarly with WFH "adjustments" -- given intent for a coming pay reduction, you should instead counter with a demand for a pay increase, because you're no longer contributing to the costs of having an office space.
- foobar2021 5y ago
  If you replace “cost of living” with “living wage” the mainstream opinion very much wants your salary to be the company’s business. Why this isn’t owned by some level (state, local) of government I have no idea.
  - Jach 5y ago
    My salary is already the company's business, they're paying it. What's worth fighting against is the idea that how I spend (or save) that salary, and worse how some average of how everyone independent of job and salary in a geographical area spends their money, should directly influence the salary itself.

dqpb 5y ago

Do you think they should reduce salary for people who have paid off their mortgage? Those people also have lower cost of living.

dqpb 5y ago
I try to avoid commenting on downvotes, but I’m really curious to know. For those downvoting me, what is your job?
cableshaft 5y ago
How about people living with multiple roommates, or renting out part of their house (I used to live in one of those situations)? Those people have a lower cost of living as well compared to others in the area. Or does it only count if you're talking someone's sole and primary mortgage and where that's physically located? Even mortgages can vary wildly. In my city I can buy a condo for $100k or I could buy a mansion for 5 million dollars. My cost of living will vary drastically depending on what I decide to get.
- dqpb 5y ago
  Exactly!
throwaway_qcjal 5y ago
The reality is that cost of living is really just a proxy in these conversations, really what we're talking about is the market wage for "premium" developers. I imagine over time remote developers will converge to a single market, but that it will take time, since there isn't as many opportunities for remote developers now there's not much pressure to move towards competing against remote offers. E.g., if I go to my employer and ask for a higher wage working remotely their likely response would be good luck getting a similar remote position. But as more remote opportunities open up you'll likely see more competition. If there's enough remote positions and they're generally seen as equally desirable as in person positions we might even see everywhere going to a single market within national boundaries regardless of remote or in person, which would be quite interesting.

usaar333 5y ago

It's a weird policy though. If I'm remote, why does my location matter to Google?

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
Because they no longer have to incentivize you to move to a very high cost of living location.
- usaar333 5y ago
  Exactly, so why have disparate pay by location? I'd expect all remote workers to get the same salary, perhaps a bit lower than onsite workers to account for productivity loss.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    I'd still expect valuable employees to flock to population centers (e.g. for education), you want to remain competitive in those areas.
    - usaar333 5y ago
      In effect though, this is location pay discrimination which only makes sense if you believe the remote people have viable onsite alternatives where they are that drives their market salary. If they are only going to work remotely (i.e. in a remote market), I don't see how this works steady-state. If there's no benefit to having an employee in SF vs. Austin, I'll just start paying a premium to non-SF residents and pull away non-SF talent from Google. Eventually, this should all equalize to remote workers being paid equally.

gorbachev 5y ago

I'd bet a lot of money this doesn't apply to executives, however.

dvtrn 5y ago
Since you asked: https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/google-exec-remote-work-wfh-urs-hlzle-employees-complaints.html https://www.inc.com/minda-zetlin/google-exec-remote-work-wfh...