9 ms·

This is why I just noped the fuck out of the Apple ecosystem. I won’t support anything which relies on opaque blacklisting to ruin lives. In this example as we

by hughrr 5y ago

This is why I just noped the fuck out of the Apple ecosystem. I won’t support anything which relies on opaque blacklisting to ruin lives. In this example as well on iCloud shared galleries you can upload to other people’s ones you have been invited to. What could possibly go wrong?

jstx1 5y ago
Maybe wait to see how it's implemented and how it works first? I really think that the HN crowd is having a giant knee-jerk reaction to all of this.
- bilekas 5y ago
  Its harder to take back policies like this than it is to object and get them stopped initially. Also people have a habit of 'forgetting' about it later. Until stories of how it is misused are found. And then it's another attack vector we need to be conscious of.
  - ElFitz 5y ago
    And that’s how France still has VAT & revenue taxes. Revenue tax? Have to pay for that expensive WWI war effort, you understand? For all the good it did. Same with the VAT. Have to rebuild after WWII, you understand. We also have an "Exceptional and Temporary Contribution" (CET), recently renamed to "Technical Equilibrium Contribution" (still CET. Smart one, that one). A funny one, for a change? When the Germans invaded in WWII, they changed France's timezone to theirs. After the war, we still called it "the German time". There were talks of going back for a few years… Guess who still has noon at 2pm in the summer, decades later? Change, no matter how ridiculously small or sensical, even when nobody benefits from the status quo (ie the damn timezone) is horrendously difficult. Thus one should always assume that once it’s here, whatever "it" is, it’s here to stay.
    - candiodari 5y ago
      There is still one constant: how the state system cares for victims of child abuse is still the same as in WW2. https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article238206754.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article23820... You would think money would go into the "backend": caring for kids where the state is responsible for everything BEFORE more money goes into the frontend: finding more kids to throw into the hellhole that is child services. Without the "backend" being in order and working well, raising well-educated, stable kids, the frontend is completely immoral. "Saving" kids from abuse, only to throw them into a slightly different kind of abuse ... if any person did that (e.g. a guy marrying a woman (or I guess vice-versa) with that resulting in that person abusing their new spouse's kids) would be considered a despicable crime. Somehow child services, who do the exact same thing (and they use violence to do it) is not a despicable crime. Somehow just because the state does it, makes such things all a-okay. But frankly this is merely the hole in the justification, all this should merely tell you one thing: any government that doesn't work hard to fix the child services backend does not have children's interests at heart when making these sorts of laws (and mostly they're making budget cuts in the backend, of course). Because fundamentally these laws throw children into the child services system. THAT is the real effect these efforts have on the actual children behind this. THAT is what is meant by "saving kids". And if that system is full of abuse, how is that any better than what paedophiles do? It's not. Which means the state is not attempting to help abused or disadvantaged children. In fact, they're doing the opposite.
    - wutbrodo 5y ago
      > We also have an "Exceptional and Temporary Contribution" (CET), recently renamed to "Technical Equilibrium Contribution" (still CET. Smart one, that one). This is amazing
      - ElFitz 5y ago
        Oh, there’s a lot more where that came from. Just an example. During a heatwave some summer over a decade ago, many elderly people died. So what did the government do? They instituted a "day of solidarity", of course! What does it mean? If you are salaried, then you get to work an extra day, during a holiday of your company’s choosing, and not be paid. The day’s salary will go to a public fund dedicated to helping promote the autonomy of elderly people. And your employer gets an extra day of employees supposedly producing value out of it. Many people instead take the day, either on their paid leave or their Work Time Reduction days (RTT). That’s on top of all the other social "contributions" (sounds better than taxes), of course. Payslips used to be quite funny to decipher[1][2]. They’ve simplified those a bit since then; mostly by regrouping items[3]. [1]: http://cdn-s-www.ledauphine.com/images/F9FED7FA-778E-40CA-8F56-6F30AB5E811A/LDL_V0_12/l-ancien-bulletin-de-paie-aligne-une-quarantaine-de-libelles-trop-selon-l-etat-qui-a-engage-un-travail-de-simplification-1508313090.jpg http://cdn-s-www.ledauphine.com/images/F9FED7FA-778E-40CA-8F... [2]: https://cap.img.pmdstatic.net/scale/http.3A.2F.2Fprd2-bone-image.2Es3-website-eu-west-1.2Eamazonaws.2Ecom.2Fcap.2F2017.2F05.2F09.2Fa00abda3-7533-4340-a4ff-6ce721fb5b4d.2Epng/560xauto/quality/70/a00abda3-7533-4340-a4ff-6ce721fb5b4d.png https://cap.img.pmdstatic.net/scale/http.3A.2F.2Fprd2-bone-i... [3]: http://s-www.ledauphine.com/images/39A7BC0B-D6E2-456D-800D-5D2B01FC344B/LDL_V0_12/la-nouvelle-fiche-de-paie-se-veut-plus-simple-plus-claire-et-surtout-plus-courte-1456502635.jpg http://s-www.ledauphine.com/images/39A7BC0B-D6E2-456D-800D-5...
- sneak 5y ago
  Devices betraying their owner to serve a remote master in ways the owner does not consent to is abhorrent, regardless of the purpose of such spying.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    > Devices betraying their owner to serve a remote master This is the type of dramatic over-the-top reaction that I'm talking about.
    - sneak 5y ago
      It's an accurate and objective description of the situation; there is no opinion involved. If you think facts are over the top, perhaps the situation is actually outrageous.
      - dzhiurgis 5y ago
        I this is sarcasm?
        sneak 5y ago
        No, I am sincere.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - tpush 5y ago
    Presumably you consent by turning on iCloud Photo Library.
    - sneak 5y ago
      This will happen with or without iCloud; the photos in iCloud are already not end to end encrypted and could easily be scanned on the server side because Apple can read all of them today. The only reason to do this clientside when the data is already readable on the server is to do it to images that aren't hitting the cloud.
- roenxi 5y ago
  It isn't exactly a knee jerk; it has been quite likely that this sort of thing would happen sooner or later. This is just a great point for if anyone is going to do anything. Apple is going to start scanning my phone looking for reasons to put me in jail. I don't want my phone's CPU time spent looking for reasons to imprison me and I don't want to be funding it either. This system will make mistakes.
  - nathanaldensr 5y ago
    Exactly. Despite countless occurrences of automated systems getting things wrong--there is no such thing as AI, remember, just fallible developers and their fallible formulae--somehow the naive continue to trust in these systems. It's insane, and those of us who do know how insane it is are left to pay the price for the naivete.
- hughrr 5y ago
  Yes I’m fully aware of all the flaws in the technical, ethical and political arenas.
Odenwaelder 5y ago
What did you switch to? Google? Are they handling this issue any better? Or are you using a dumbphone?
- dmm 5y ago
  Android without google services, using lineageos or calyxos.
  - Odenwaelder 5y ago
    How well does this work as a daily driver? I heavily rely on my smartphone.
    - the_third_wave 5y ago
      It is just Android minus the nosy bits, it works just fine. I've used AOSP-derived distributions since 2011 and never felt I was missing out on anything, au contraire. Longer battery life, no ads, no spying other than through the radio firmware (which is part of all devices from all manufacturers using all operating systems [1]), no nonsense. [1] I seem to remember that RIM (of Blackberry fame) made devices which used combined radio and systems firmware so those would be an exception to this rule
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dmm 5y ago
      It's all I've ever used. I think it works great but I think your experience will depend heavily on your expectations. I don't use any proprietary apps and only install them from fdroid or build them myself. But if you do, you're going to have a different experience. Let's say you want to run Whatsapp. From what I can tell you basically have three options: 1) Install google apps. When you install your rom you will also download a gapps bundle and install it. This will be a very vanilla android experience but with the ability to uninstall whatever you want, root, etc. You can open the play store and install Whatsapp. Everything should work OOTB. However you're running all of the google service including google play services, so privacy-wise this is not significantly different than stock android. 2) Install microg When you install your rom you can also install microg. This is an install time option in Calyxos. Microg replaces many of the google apis. You can install Whatsapp through Aurora store, which can install apps from the play store. Whatsapp will use the microg FCM implementation. FCM is google's notification service. It allows your phone to make a single persistent connection to receive notifications, allowing for better battery efficiency b/c you don't have many apps activating the radio. FCM just communicates that an app has a notification, it doesn't carry the contents of the message. Unlike play services, microg registers the FCM connection with an anonymous. So google knows your device is running whatsapp and when you get notifications, but not what they are. 3) No gapps / no microg Don't do either of the above. You won't get push notifications with whatsapp. Many free/libre apps have alternative notification schemes involving separate persistent connections. This is less power efficient but works without involving google. I use Signal and Element like this and my battery still lasts >24 hours. Several developments
heavymark 5y ago
Who did you switch to? As I assume you are aware Google has already been doing this as well as Facebook. Apple was simply the last of those to start doing it. Facebook reported 20 million instances of csam to ncmec last year alone.
- zabatuvajdka 5y ago
  Who says you need any of the above? Cloud storage is overrated. When is the last time you lost files? I have stuff from an old lexar jump drive early 2000s doing just fine. For more sensitive materials back up when the data changes and store in a disaster proof safe. I think the fear of losing things is a problem. People take so many photos anyway and who even looks at all of them? Memories are great and we should cherish them but… this is one of those cases where folks don’t need to rely on big tech.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Or, just encrypt your files before sending them to sit on someone else's server.
    - 14 5y ago
      Gasp, are you saying anyone worried about getting caught simply could encrypt their photos first and this system won’t work? So an extra step for the bad guy, a system that is invasive for all users, and a system that is easily avoided by the bad guy. What are you doing Apple, this feels like a cheating partner here.
  - camillomiller 5y ago
    Then in this case you could still use an Apple device, considering that if you don't use iCloud Photos, there's no scanning on your device anyway. I think that radical stances and refusing a dialogue, albeit critical, it's something that in this case won't really go anywhere.
    - zionic 5y ago

by hughrr 5y ago

jstx1 5y ago

Maybe wait to see how it's implemented and how it works first? I really think that the HN crowd is having a giant knee-jerk reaction to all of this.

bilekas 5y ago
Its harder to take back policies like this than it is to object and get them stopped initially. Also people have a habit of 'forgetting' about it later. Until stories of how it is misused are found. And then it's another attack vector we need to be conscious of.
- ElFitz 5y ago
  And that’s how France still has VAT & revenue taxes. Revenue tax? Have to pay for that expensive WWI war effort, you understand? For all the good it did. Same with the VAT. Have to rebuild after WWII, you understand. We also have an "Exceptional and Temporary Contribution" (CET), recently renamed to "Technical Equilibrium Contribution" (still CET. Smart one, that one). A funny one, for a change? When the Germans invaded in WWII, they changed France's timezone to theirs. After the war, we still called it "the German time". There were talks of going back for a few years… Guess who still has noon at 2pm in the summer, decades later? Change, no matter how ridiculously small or sensical, even when nobody benefits from the status quo (ie the damn timezone) is horrendously difficult. Thus one should always assume that once it’s here, whatever "it" is, it’s here to stay.
  - candiodari 5y ago
    There is still one constant: how the state system cares for victims of child abuse is still the same as in WW2. https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article238206754.html https://www.kansascity.com/news/special-reports/article23820... You would think money would go into the "backend": caring for kids where the state is responsible for everything BEFORE more money goes into the frontend: finding more kids to throw into the hellhole that is child services. Without the "backend" being in order and working well, raising well-educated, stable kids, the frontend is completely immoral. "Saving" kids from abuse, only to throw them into a slightly different kind of abuse ... if any person did that (e.g. a guy marrying a woman (or I guess vice-versa) with that resulting in that person abusing their new spouse's kids) would be considered a despicable crime. Somehow child services, who do the exact same thing (and they use violence to do it) is not a despicable crime. Somehow just because the state does it, makes such things all a-okay. But frankly this is merely the hole in the justification, all this should merely tell you one thing: any government that doesn't work hard to fix the child services backend does not have children's interests at heart when making these sorts of laws (and mostly they're making budget cuts in the backend, of course). Because fundamentally these laws throw children into the child services system. THAT is the real effect these efforts have on the actual children behind this. THAT is what is meant by "saving kids". And if that system is full of abuse, how is that any better than what paedophiles do? It's not. Which means the state is not attempting to help abused or disadvantaged children. In fact, they're doing the opposite.
  - wutbrodo 5y ago
    > We also have an "Exceptional and Temporary Contribution" (CET), recently renamed to "Technical Equilibrium Contribution" (still CET. Smart one, that one). This is amazing
    - ElFitz 5y ago
      Oh, there’s a lot more where that came from. Just an example. During a heatwave some summer over a decade ago, many elderly people died. So what did the government do? They instituted a "day of solidarity", of course! What does it mean? If you are salaried, then you get to work an extra day, during a holiday of your company’s choosing, and not be paid. The day’s salary will go to a public fund dedicated to helping promote the autonomy of elderly people. And your employer gets an extra day of employees supposedly producing value out of it. Many people instead take the day, either on their paid leave or their Work Time Reduction days (RTT). That’s on top of all the other social "contributions" (sounds better than taxes), of course. Payslips used to be quite funny to decipher[1][2]. They’ve simplified those a bit since then; mostly by regrouping items[3]. [1]: http://cdn-s-www.ledauphine.com/images/F9FED7FA-778E-40CA-8F56-6F30AB5E811A/LDL_V0_12/l-ancien-bulletin-de-paie-aligne-une-quarantaine-de-libelles-trop-selon-l-etat-qui-a-engage-un-travail-de-simplification-1508313090.jpg http://cdn-s-www.ledauphine.com/images/F9FED7FA-778E-40CA-8F... [2]: https://cap.img.pmdstatic.net/scale/http.3A.2F.2Fprd2-bone-image.2Es3-website-eu-west-1.2Eamazonaws.2Ecom.2Fcap.2F2017.2F05.2F09.2Fa00abda3-7533-4340-a4ff-6ce721fb5b4d.2Epng/560xauto/quality/70/a00abda3-7533-4340-a4ff-6ce721fb5b4d.png https://cap.img.pmdstatic.net/scale/http.3A.2F.2Fprd2-bone-i... [3]: http://s-www.ledauphine.com/images/39A7BC0B-D6E2-456D-800D-5D2B01FC344B/LDL_V0_12/la-nouvelle-fiche-de-paie-se-veut-plus-simple-plus-claire-et-surtout-plus-courte-1456502635.jpg http://s-www.ledauphine.com/images/39A7BC0B-D6E2-456D-800D-5...
sneak 5y ago
Devices betraying their owner to serve a remote master in ways the owner does not consent to is abhorrent, regardless of the purpose of such spying.
- jstx1 5y ago
  > Devices betraying their owner to serve a remote master This is the type of dramatic over-the-top reaction that I'm talking about.
  - sneak 5y ago
    It's an accurate and objective description of the situation; there is no opinion involved. If you think facts are over the top, perhaps the situation is actually outrageous.
    - dzhiurgis 5y ago
      I this is sarcasm?
      - sneak 5y ago
        No, I am sincere.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- tpush 5y ago
  Presumably you consent by turning on iCloud Photo Library.
  - sneak 5y ago
    This will happen with or without iCloud; the photos in iCloud are already not end to end encrypted and could easily be scanned on the server side because Apple can read all of them today. The only reason to do this clientside when the data is already readable on the server is to do it to images that aren't hitting the cloud.
roenxi 5y ago
It isn't exactly a knee jerk; it has been quite likely that this sort of thing would happen sooner or later. This is just a great point for if anyone is going to do anything. Apple is going to start scanning my phone looking for reasons to put me in jail. I don't want my phone's CPU time spent looking for reasons to imprison me and I don't want to be funding it either. This system will make mistakes.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Exactly. Despite countless occurrences of automated systems getting things wrong--there is no such thing as AI, remember, just fallible developers and their fallible formulae--somehow the naive continue to trust in these systems. It's insane, and those of us who do know how insane it is are left to pay the price for the naivete.
hughrr 5y ago
Yes I’m fully aware of all the flaws in the technical, ethical and political arenas.

Odenwaelder 5y ago

What did you switch to? Google? Are they handling this issue any better? Or are you using a dumbphone?

dmm 5y ago
Android without google services, using lineageos or calyxos.
- Odenwaelder 5y ago
  How well does this work as a daily driver? I heavily rely on my smartphone.
  - the_third_wave 5y ago
    It is just Android minus the nosy bits, it works just fine. I've used AOSP-derived distributions since 2011 and never felt I was missing out on anything, au contraire. Longer battery life, no ads, no spying other than through the radio firmware (which is part of all devices from all manufacturers using all operating systems [1]), no nonsense. [1] I seem to remember that RIM (of Blackberry fame) made devices which used combined radio and systems firmware so those would be an exception to this rule
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dmm 5y ago
    It's all I've ever used. I think it works great but I think your experience will depend heavily on your expectations. I don't use any proprietary apps and only install them from fdroid or build them myself. But if you do, you're going to have a different experience. Let's say you want to run Whatsapp. From what I can tell you basically have three options: 1) Install google apps. When you install your rom you will also download a gapps bundle and install it. This will be a very vanilla android experience but with the ability to uninstall whatever you want, root, etc. You can open the play store and install Whatsapp. Everything should work OOTB. However you're running all of the google service including google play services, so privacy-wise this is not significantly different than stock android. 2) Install microg When you install your rom you can also install microg. This is an install time option in Calyxos. Microg replaces many of the google apis. You can install Whatsapp through Aurora store, which can install apps from the play store. Whatsapp will use the microg FCM implementation. FCM is google's notification service. It allows your phone to make a single persistent connection to receive notifications, allowing for better battery efficiency b/c you don't have many apps activating the radio. FCM just communicates that an app has a notification, it doesn't carry the contents of the message. Unlike play services, microg registers the FCM connection with an anonymous. So google knows your device is running whatsapp and when you get notifications, but not what they are. 3) No gapps / no microg Don't do either of the above. You won't get push notifications with whatsapp. Many free/libre apps have alternative notification schemes involving separate persistent connections. This is less power efficient but works without involving google. I use Signal and Element like this and my battery still lasts >24 hours. Several developments

heavymark 5y ago

Who did you switch to? As I assume you are aware Google has already been doing this as well as Facebook. Apple was simply the last of those to start doing it. Facebook reported 20 million instances of csam to ncmec last year alone.

zabatuvajdka 5y ago
Who says you need any of the above? Cloud storage is overrated. When is the last time you lost files? I have stuff from an old lexar jump drive early 2000s doing just fine. For more sensitive materials back up when the data changes and store in a disaster proof safe. I think the fear of losing things is a problem. People take so many photos anyway and who even looks at all of them? Memories are great and we should cherish them but… this is one of those cases where folks don’t need to rely on big tech.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  Or, just encrypt your files before sending them to sit on someone else's server.
  - 14 5y ago
    Gasp, are you saying anyone worried about getting caught simply could encrypt their photos first and this system won’t work? So an extra step for the bad guy, a system that is invasive for all users, and a system that is easily avoided by the bad guy. What are you doing Apple, this feels like a cheating partner here.
- camillomiller 5y ago
  Then in this case you could still use an Apple device, considering that if you don't use iCloud Photos, there's no scanning on your device anyway. I think that radical stances and refusing a dialogue, albeit critical, it's something that in this case won't really go anywhere.
  - zionic 5y ago