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Romanian here, the "I learned this when I was 9" might have been a slight exaggeration so that your friend could make a point, but as an another anecdata I can

Romanian here, the "I learned this when I was 9" might have been a slight exaggeration so that your friend could make a point, but as an another anecdata I can say that I distinctly remember one of my first calculus classes while I was in 9th grade (I think I was 15 years old at the time) and our maths teacher trying to explain to us how real numbers are defined and, more importantly, what that definition really means. That class/hour stood with me ever since, even though 25 years have passed. But truth be told it very highly depended on the quality of the math teachers. I was lucky enough to get into one of the best high-schools in my town so that we got a really good maths teacher, but the teacher "quality" was not that uniformly distributed across different schools.

gnat 5y ago
Do the students bring any motivation to the classroom? Like, is there a culture of "study hard and pay attention in maths and sciences, because that's how we escape poverty" or something like that? Here in New Zealand, middle class parents put a high premium on being happy and fulfilled, and most (that I've seen across several schools) don't really prime their kids for academic success by saying "this is important, we value it, and you should too". It may be different for lower-class or upper-class kids here (I haven't spent a lot of time in those schools). Keen to know what it was like in Romania.
- rob74 5y ago
  I grew up in Romania too (finished school in 1992), and at least during the communist regime I can't really remember a culture of studying hard to escape poverty, because that simply wasn't how you escaped poverty - it was more a mix of "choosing the right parents", the people you knew, a bit of luck, a bit of corruption and maybe some shrewdness, but Romania definitely wasn't a meritocracy at that time (that may however have changed since, at least to some degree). However, kids that studied hard and were very good in school weren't looked down upon and disrespected as they sometimes are in the West. At University (after the regime changed), studying hard did become more common, but it was directed at scoring a job in Canada/USA/wherever, not at escaping poverty in Romania itself...
  - paganel 5y ago
    I finished highschool in 1999, grew up in a mono-industrial city which had just seen its only, well, industrial place in town close down and sold for scraps, in my case (and in the case of many of my colleagues) learning maths and getting into university with free admission was really one of the few escapes available from said town and, hence, from poverty. I think those 7 years (1992 vs 1999) made a hell of a difference because of the economic "reforms" that were implemented in that time-interval and which actually saw many towns like the ones I grew up in become destitute in a matter of just a few years. Unfortunately that decade (the '90s) is not that well-studied yet in our history classes (maybe because it is too recent?), fact is I've only started to realise its true importance and its true, horrible economic and life-changing effects on our parents' generation (people who are now in the 60s and 70s) only recently. I think the same happened over almost all of the former Soviet Bloc, and imo it greatly explains some of the political tendencies we see today. But that is turning into OT, sorry for that.
    - selestify 5y ago
      > imo it greatly explains some of the political tendencies we see today That's very interesting, could you please expound on that?
- visarga 5y ago
  Depends very much on the parents. Some families put a lot of importance on studies, and others don't. Usually those from countryside or without higher education would not care.
  - holoduke 5y ago
    The most important thing is to shape your kids in such a way that they can make choices themselves. Worst thing is when parents are pushing their children to go for the highest (their eyes) education. A child who likes what he/she is doing, even when it is 'just' wood making becomes a much happier child. Northern Europe is good in this. The US so so. But China and India are the worst examples. So many talented people doing things not in line with their real desires.
- rogalact 5y ago
  In Romania, from what i recall, it was usually the beatings. Didnt like math? The teacher would simply use the pointing stick to smash your hands. I was fortunate enough to have liked math but some weren’t. And so there were the beatings. Those attending “olympiads” were brainwashed into thinking that somehow they were superior and at some point we had to look down upon those whom, god forbid, chose something else but maths. Some indeed went on to have high paying office jobs in western countries, many of whom are now turning back. Apparently being trained to win olympiads doesn't yield an entrepreneurial spirit nor does it lead to riches, and after a life wasted they now just want to live a bit.
  - tw20212021 5y ago
    You are exaggerating, I've never seen a beating in school (from a teacher to a pupil). Was in school in Bucharest from the 90's to 00's, had loads of maths and other stem classes. If you didn't keep up you'd get a bad grade, if you didn't pass the year you'd have a chance to correct it during summer school, and worst you'd repeat the year. Nothing uncommon here. And I don't share your hate against the ones competing in the olympics, I knew lots of them, later on they went into research, got jobs at Google, did PHDs at Harvard and Princeton and the likes and are now professors at top universities. And some of them are good entrepreneurs now, you'd be surprised.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      He's not exaggerating at all. I was in school in roughly the same period as you and although beatings from teachers to pupils were very rare, they did exist and happend if the pupil was very unruly and caused trouble in class (I had one classmate who nearly assaulted a teacher during class because he didn't like the bad grade he got), but usually the teacher had the "blessing" from the pupil's parents to perform such "corrections". Beatings were much more common in the poorer parts of the cities/country with poor performing schools and broken families (alcoholism, domestic abuse, poverty). At top schools in big cities like the one you probably went to with alumni that go to Harvard and Google, beatings were not common at all because usually the children came from mid/upper-class families. But that's very small percentage of the pupils in Romania that are in such a performant environment. When my dad was in school in the 60's, from what he told me, receiving beatings in school from teachers was very common all around even for stupid reasons as some teachers would go on aggressive power trips if you stepped on their nerves.
Wildgoose 5y ago
UK citizen here. More specifically, English - the 4 "home" UK nations have different Education systems. I learned Calculus at 14, but I am now 56. We still used log tables when I was at school, calculators were only just being introduced. From what I have seen from my children, our maths education has been seriously dumbed down.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >our maths education has been seriously dumbed down. I hear this complaint form nearly every country. It seems like the system has found this "hack" where if you dumb things down enough, then scores go up across the board, giving the impression that the children are performing better, so the people in charge can meet or exceed their KPIs, and everybody's a "winner". For example, in Romania it was very difficult to get top grades at schools a few decades ago so those grades were used as entry criterias in universities, but nowadays everyone can get top grades without a sweat by carefully rigging the system, so universities have introduced their own entry exams since when everyone has top grades then they are all worthless.
  - chucksmash 5y ago
    Goodhart's Law: When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
Jach 5y ago
I used to know online a Romanian who had moved to Canada sometime during high school, she made similar points about the slowness of the North American curriculum. I told her about my 11th grade AP Physics C material (which uses calculus) in America and she indicated that in Romania they forced her to learn all that stuff years ago. However she wasn't exactly helpful when I later asked if she could help me with something, she'd forgotten too much and anyway didn't have an interest to keep up or go further. I'm still left unconvinced in the superiority of other countries teaching their kids so much more so much earlier when it seems to be forgotten not long after, and of course there are the long-standing "where are the results?" counter-arguments. It's hard not to be skeptical of prolonged compulsory education of any quality.
- paganel 5y ago
  I'm also not convinced about the superiority of any teaching system (especially now, after I've learned about and read some Ivan Illich), I was just trying to confirm OP's point that the education systems around this part of the world were indeed pushing harder when it came to some maths-related stuff earlier in a kid's "educational cycle", so to speak. I'm also highly "skeptical of prolonged compulsory education of any quality" but, again, I think that maybe that will steer the discussion into OT territory.
- nostrademons 5y ago
  I think we do see results in domains where math & science is particularly important. Eastern Europeans are consistently among the best algorithmic programmers I've worked with. My employer was co-founded by a Russian immigrant, son of a math professor. Russia beat us to space, and given the backwardness of the general eastern bloc economy they're remarkably strong in science and technology. On the flip side, the American capitalist economy does a remarkably good job of making productive use of people who are not academically strong (this is a notable strength vs. the Chinese, as well). And American culture & education stresses team-playing, communication skills, and trust, all of which are weaknesses of many of the Eastern-bloc programmers I've worked with. The thing is, I don't believe that the strengths of American culture are mutually exclusive with Russian and other Eastern European strengths in mathematics and science education. In other words, we could have both. What's stopping us from ripping out just the dumbed-down math curriculum from schools and replacing it with Russian-style instruction? I guess that's what the article is about, and some families are doing just that with private enrichment classes.

gnat 5y ago

Do the students bring any motivation to the classroom? Like, is there a culture of "study hard and pay attention in maths and sciences, because that's how we escape poverty" or something like that? Here in New Zealand, middle class parents put a high premium on being happy and fulfilled, and most (that I've seen across several schools) don't really prime their kids for academic success by saying "this is important, we value it, and you should too". It may be different for lower-class or upper-class kids here (I haven't spent a lot of time in those schools). Keen to know what it was like in Romania.

rob74 5y ago
I grew up in Romania too (finished school in 1992), and at least during the communist regime I can't really remember a culture of studying hard to escape poverty, because that simply wasn't how you escaped poverty - it was more a mix of "choosing the right parents", the people you knew, a bit of luck, a bit of corruption and maybe some shrewdness, but Romania definitely wasn't a meritocracy at that time (that may however have changed since, at least to some degree). However, kids that studied hard and were very good in school weren't looked down upon and disrespected as they sometimes are in the West. At University (after the regime changed), studying hard did become more common, but it was directed at scoring a job in Canada/USA/wherever, not at escaping poverty in Romania itself...
- paganel 5y ago
  I finished highschool in 1999, grew up in a mono-industrial city which had just seen its only, well, industrial place in town close down and sold for scraps, in my case (and in the case of many of my colleagues) learning maths and getting into university with free admission was really one of the few escapes available from said town and, hence, from poverty. I think those 7 years (1992 vs 1999) made a hell of a difference because of the economic "reforms" that were implemented in that time-interval and which actually saw many towns like the ones I grew up in become destitute in a matter of just a few years. Unfortunately that decade (the '90s) is not that well-studied yet in our history classes (maybe because it is too recent?), fact is I've only started to realise its true importance and its true, horrible economic and life-changing effects on our parents' generation (people who are now in the 60s and 70s) only recently. I think the same happened over almost all of the former Soviet Bloc, and imo it greatly explains some of the political tendencies we see today. But that is turning into OT, sorry for that.
  - selestify 5y ago
    > imo it greatly explains some of the political tendencies we see today That's very interesting, could you please expound on that?
visarga 5y ago
Depends very much on the parents. Some families put a lot of importance on studies, and others don't. Usually those from countryside or without higher education would not care.
- holoduke 5y ago
  The most important thing is to shape your kids in such a way that they can make choices themselves. Worst thing is when parents are pushing their children to go for the highest (their eyes) education. A child who likes what he/she is doing, even when it is 'just' wood making becomes a much happier child. Northern Europe is good in this. The US so so. But China and India are the worst examples. So many talented people doing things not in line with their real desires.
rogalact 5y ago
In Romania, from what i recall, it was usually the beatings. Didnt like math? The teacher would simply use the pointing stick to smash your hands. I was fortunate enough to have liked math but some weren’t. And so there were the beatings. Those attending “olympiads” were brainwashed into thinking that somehow they were superior and at some point we had to look down upon those whom, god forbid, chose something else but maths. Some indeed went on to have high paying office jobs in western countries, many of whom are now turning back. Apparently being trained to win olympiads doesn't yield an entrepreneurial spirit nor does it lead to riches, and after a life wasted they now just want to live a bit.
- tw20212021 5y ago
  You are exaggerating, I've never seen a beating in school (from a teacher to a pupil). Was in school in Bucharest from the 90's to 00's, had loads of maths and other stem classes. If you didn't keep up you'd get a bad grade, if you didn't pass the year you'd have a chance to correct it during summer school, and worst you'd repeat the year. Nothing uncommon here. And I don't share your hate against the ones competing in the olympics, I knew lots of them, later on they went into research, got jobs at Google, did PHDs at Harvard and Princeton and the likes and are now professors at top universities. And some of them are good entrepreneurs now, you'd be surprised.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    He's not exaggerating at all. I was in school in roughly the same period as you and although beatings from teachers to pupils were very rare, they did exist and happend if the pupil was very unruly and caused trouble in class (I had one classmate who nearly assaulted a teacher during class because he didn't like the bad grade he got), but usually the teacher had the "blessing" from the pupil's parents to perform such "corrections". Beatings were much more common in the poorer parts of the cities/country with poor performing schools and broken families (alcoholism, domestic abuse, poverty). At top schools in big cities like the one you probably went to with alumni that go to Harvard and Google, beatings were not common at all because usually the children came from mid/upper-class families. But that's very small percentage of the pupils in Romania that are in such a performant environment. When my dad was in school in the 60's, from what he told me, receiving beatings in school from teachers was very common all around even for stupid reasons as some teachers would go on aggressive power trips if you stepped on their nerves.

Wildgoose 5y ago

UK citizen here. More specifically, English - the 4 "home" UK nations have different Education systems. I learned Calculus at 14, but I am now 56. We still used log tables when I was at school, calculators were only just being introduced. From what I have seen from my children, our maths education has been seriously dumbed down.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>our maths education has been seriously dumbed down. I hear this complaint form nearly every country. It seems like the system has found this "hack" where if you dumb things down enough, then scores go up across the board, giving the impression that the children are performing better, so the people in charge can meet or exceed their KPIs, and everybody's a "winner". For example, in Romania it was very difficult to get top grades at schools a few decades ago so those grades were used as entry criterias in universities, but nowadays everyone can get top grades without a sweat by carefully rigging the system, so universities have introduced their own entry exams since when everyone has top grades then they are all worthless.
- chucksmash 5y ago
  Goodhart's Law: When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Jach 5y ago

I used to know online a Romanian who had moved to Canada sometime during high school, she made similar points about the slowness of the North American curriculum. I told her about my 11th grade AP Physics C material (which uses calculus) in America and she indicated that in Romania they forced her to learn all that stuff years ago. However she wasn't exactly helpful when I later asked if she could help me with something, she'd forgotten too much and anyway didn't have an interest to keep up or go further. I'm still left unconvinced in the superiority of other countries teaching their kids so much more so much earlier when it seems to be forgotten not long after, and of course there are the long-standing "where are the results?" counter-arguments. It's hard not to be skeptical of prolonged compulsory education of any quality.

paganel 5y ago
I'm also not convinced about the superiority of any teaching system (especially now, after I've learned about and read some Ivan Illich), I was just trying to confirm OP's point that the education systems around this part of the world were indeed pushing harder when it came to some maths-related stuff earlier in a kid's "educational cycle", so to speak. I'm also highly "skeptical of prolonged compulsory education of any quality" but, again, I think that maybe that will steer the discussion into OT territory.
nostrademons 5y ago
I think we do see results in domains where math & science is particularly important. Eastern Europeans are consistently among the best algorithmic programmers I've worked with. My employer was co-founded by a Russian immigrant, son of a math professor. Russia beat us to space, and given the backwardness of the general eastern bloc economy they're remarkably strong in science and technology. On the flip side, the American capitalist economy does a remarkably good job of making productive use of people who are not academically strong (this is a notable strength vs. the Chinese, as well). And American culture & education stresses team-playing, communication skills, and trust, all of which are weaknesses of many of the Eastern-bloc programmers I've worked with. The thing is, I don't believe that the strengths of American culture are mutually exclusive with Russian and other Eastern European strengths in mathematics and science education. In other words, we could have both. What's stopping us from ripping out just the dumbed-down math curriculum from schools and replacing it with Russian-style instruction? I guess that's what the article is about, and some families are doing just that with private enrichment classes.