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Why is dumbing down science teaching the fault of extreme progressive left and not, say, reduced education funding, favouring religious teaching, or even more l

Why is dumbing down science teaching the fault of extreme progressive left and not, say, reduced education funding, favouring religious teaching, or even more likely, nuanced policy difficulties that don't fit nicely into a left/right divide?

inglor_cz 5y ago
"reduced education funding" But Albania can finance rigorous teaching of science ... ? USA spends a lot more money per pupil than any former Eastern Bloc nation. But you can spend a lot of money on inefficient solutions. For a less politically charged example: compare expenses of the Falcon rocket family to those of the Space Launch System.
- vanviegen 5y ago
  Teaching might be (or might have been) a prestigious and relatively well-paying job in Albania. I wouldn't know - would you?
  - Natsu 5y ago
    ardit33 would know and having said "A doctor and a nurse probably lived in the same apartment, and had similar wages." I question both the idea that teachers were highly paid and that there was much status to be had in general in Albania.
  - seer 5y ago
    Don’t know about Albania, but in Bulgaria the teachers had very low pay, (so were / are nurses btw). I think the difference was that they were very respected. When I managed to attend teacher parent meetings I could see the deference people had for their children’s teachers. And children also deeply respected them for the most part. The scenes from the beginning of Breaking Bad for example are rather alien to me - I can understand them, but I’ve never encountered such things when I was a kid.
- disk0 5y ago
  > But Albania can finance rigorous teaching of science > USA spends a lot more money per pupil than any former Eastern Bloc nation. But you can spend a lot of money on inefficient solutions. You're not wrong. Financialization of education continuing down from secondar to primary education, commodification of students—I think those are a bit better descriptions of the issue beyond "funding cuts" personally. Its incredibly easy to make things inefficient (or efficient at something else [0]) when quality/efficiency slowly fades from the conciousness of those in charge. I'd say the more important thing is that there are large failures here, they were building before "Extreme progressive Liberals" (which depending on how I read that I can agree with, from the left even). Saying this as someone who was a STEM kid in high school, took AP Calc at 15, etc.—I'm more mixed on the more static curriculum as described earlier, its not as important here tho [0] Like cranking out Amazon employees <https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/amazon-warehouse-communities-towns-geography-warehouse-fulfillment-jfk8-cajon-inland-empire https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/amazon-warehouse-communit...> """ Writer Erika Hayasaki visited Cajon High. Here’s what she found: A dozen students sat clustered at work tables inside an air-conditioned classroom, which was designed to emulate the inside of an Amazon facility. On one wall, Amazon’s giant logo grinned across a yellow and green banner. The words “CUSTOMER OBSESSION” and “DELIVER RESULTS” were painted against a corporate-style yellow backdrop. On a whiteboard, a teacher had written the words “Logistics Final Project,” and the lesson of the day was on Amazon’s “14 Leadership Principles.” Each teenager wore a company golf shirt emblazoned with the Amazon logo. ... A public high-school classroom designed to resemble an Amazon facility, with students wearing Amazon logos on their clothing as they memorize Amazon’s leadership principles (which, it is worth noting, also include “Ownership” and “Think Big,” injunctions that hold merit for readers of this magazine when imagining how we might solve the problems exemplified by Amazon). Such a relationship between the company and public goods like a high school is part of what it means to consider Amazon as “the major working-class space of suburban and exurban socialization.” """
colechristensen 5y ago
Here you go: https://www.noodle.com/articles/let-s-get-rid-of-special-education-opinion https://www.noodle.com/articles/let-s-get-rid-of-special-edu... Inclusive classrooms raise scores of the lower performing students. That's probably true. It glosses over what it does to people on the other end of the spectrum. As someone from the other end of the spectrum, growing up never having to put any effort, having few or no peers close to my level, and being constantly encouraged by the people around me to do poorly for curves etc... I can say I developed life long development/psychological problems as a result, and the idea that I or anyone in the future like me should be slowed down so everyone is more equal is deeply offensive.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Why isn't it deeply offensive for you to want to slow them down if the reverse is true?
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    Because in kindergarten I was regularly asked to go hang out by myself as literally every other student in the room learned to read. When they gave me the tests they use to measure themselves I got 99th percentile scores so literally neglecting me got them the metric as doing anything for me.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      Yeah, I get the general idea. I, like most HN readers likely were, was in a similar situation. And as a certified smart guy I now ask myself and others questions like: Why is it deeply offensive to hold you back when you are literally suggesting to hold them back instead?
      - colechristensen 5y ago
        Because there is a distinct bias against students who understand the material who get ignored in favor of students who don't Having a bit of talent hides what you actually need which tends to get ignored because you're better at figuring things out.
nostromo 5y ago
In some places in the US it may be a funding issue, but in most places it’s not. Take Baltimore for example. The public schools are very well-funded by any standard. And yet they have several high schools that didn’t produce a single student proficient in math. https://www.k12dive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-report-0-students-proficient-in-math-reading/443155/ https://www.k12dive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-repor...
credit_guy 5y ago
Take New York City (which I'm familiar with, but it's likely the story is similar in many other places): - each public school has the same budget per student. There is no "reduced education funding" for schools in district X vs district Y, or for any school, because the budget per student is equal. Each school's budget is public, and published on the web. - favoring religious teaching: at least at the school my kids go to there's absolutely no religious teaching. I suspect this is the case for all the public schools in NYC - nuanced policy difficulties? Not sure what you mean by this Ok, now to answer your original question: why the fault of progressive left. As you see I skipped the word "extreme", as this is a loaded word; people who vote that way certainly do not perceive themselves as extreme. At the recent mayoral primaries, the top candidates were the moderates Eric Adams and Kathryn Garcia (1st and 2nd place), and the progressive Maya Wiley (3rd place). As far as the education was concerned, the hot topic was the selective "specialized high schools" [1], where the admission is test-based, according to a state law passed about 50 years ago. The current mayor (Bill de Blasio, progressive) has worked tirelessly for the last 4 years or so to lobby the State legislature to get the law repealed. The progressive candidate, Maya Wiley, promised to work towards the same goal. Here's the relevant extract from her platform [2] >> To remove barriers that separate and label children, we will: [...] Eliminate discriminatory admissions “screens.” In other words, kill the specialized high schools program. Eric Adams (the winner, moderate) promised to keep the program as it currently is. In case you wonder what the admission entrance exam is like, it's just two separate tests, one for ELA and one for math. Both tests are fairly challenging. The progressives think that these tests (and especially the math one) are discriminatory in nature. Here's a sample math question [3, p.78] "In Centerville, 45% of the population is female, and 60% of the population commutes to work daily. Of the total Centerville population, 21% are females who commute to work daily. What percentage of the total Centerville population are males who do not commute to work daily?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_high_schools_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_high_schools_in_Ne... [2] https://www.mayawileyformayor.com/maya-wileys-plan-for-creating-a-just-vibrant-school-system/ https://www.mayawileyformayor.com/maya-wileys-plan-for-creat... [3] https://cdn-blob-prd.azureedge.net/prd-pws/docs/default-source/default-document-library/2022-shsat-sample-test-a-and-explanations.pdf https://cdn-blob-prd.azureedge.net/prd-pws/docs/default-sour...
- 5y ago
arthur_sav 5y ago
I don't think there's a single country that spends more on education than the US and yet here we are. IMO the prosperity of the US has made people entitled and it's easier to complain than to put in the work.

inglor_cz 5y ago

"reduced education funding" But Albania can finance rigorous teaching of science ... ? USA spends a lot more money per pupil than any former Eastern Bloc nation. But you can spend a lot of money on inefficient solutions. For a less politically charged example: compare expenses of the Falcon rocket family to those of the Space Launch System.

vanviegen 5y ago
Teaching might be (or might have been) a prestigious and relatively well-paying job in Albania. I wouldn't know - would you?
- Natsu 5y ago
  ardit33 would know and having said "A doctor and a nurse probably lived in the same apartment, and had similar wages." I question both the idea that teachers were highly paid and that there was much status to be had in general in Albania.
- seer 5y ago
  Don’t know about Albania, but in Bulgaria the teachers had very low pay, (so were / are nurses btw). I think the difference was that they were very respected. When I managed to attend teacher parent meetings I could see the deference people had for their children’s teachers. And children also deeply respected them for the most part. The scenes from the beginning of Breaking Bad for example are rather alien to me - I can understand them, but I’ve never encountered such things when I was a kid.
disk0 5y ago
> But Albania can finance rigorous teaching of science > USA spends a lot more money per pupil than any former Eastern Bloc nation. But you can spend a lot of money on inefficient solutions. You're not wrong. Financialization of education continuing down from secondar to primary education, commodification of students—I think those are a bit better descriptions of the issue beyond "funding cuts" personally. Its incredibly easy to make things inefficient (or efficient at something else [0]) when quality/efficiency slowly fades from the conciousness of those in charge. I'd say the more important thing is that there are large failures here, they were building before "Extreme progressive Liberals" (which depending on how I read that I can agree with, from the left even). Saying this as someone who was a STEM kid in high school, took AP Calc at 15, etc.—I'm more mixed on the more static curriculum as described earlier, its not as important here tho [0] Like cranking out Amazon employees <https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/amazon-warehouse-communities-towns-geography-warehouse-fulfillment-jfk8-cajon-inland-empire https://www.jacobinmag.com/2021/07/amazon-warehouse-communit...> """ Writer Erika Hayasaki visited Cajon High. Here’s what she found: A dozen students sat clustered at work tables inside an air-conditioned classroom, which was designed to emulate the inside of an Amazon facility. On one wall, Amazon’s giant logo grinned across a yellow and green banner. The words “CUSTOMER OBSESSION” and “DELIVER RESULTS” were painted against a corporate-style yellow backdrop. On a whiteboard, a teacher had written the words “Logistics Final Project,” and the lesson of the day was on Amazon’s “14 Leadership Principles.” Each teenager wore a company golf shirt emblazoned with the Amazon logo. ... A public high-school classroom designed to resemble an Amazon facility, with students wearing Amazon logos on their clothing as they memorize Amazon’s leadership principles (which, it is worth noting, also include “Ownership” and “Think Big,” injunctions that hold merit for readers of this magazine when imagining how we might solve the problems exemplified by Amazon). Such a relationship between the company and public goods like a high school is part of what it means to consider Amazon as “the major working-class space of suburban and exurban socialization.” """

colechristensen 5y ago

Here you go: https://www.noodle.com/articles/let-s-get-rid-of-special-education-opinion https://www.noodle.com/articles/let-s-get-rid-of-special-edu... Inclusive classrooms raise scores of the lower performing students. That's probably true. It glosses over what it does to people on the other end of the spectrum. As someone from the other end of the spectrum, growing up never having to put any effort, having few or no peers close to my level, and being constantly encouraged by the people around me to do poorly for curves etc... I can say I developed life long development/psychological problems as a result, and the idea that I or anyone in the future like me should be slowed down so everyone is more equal is deeply offensive.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Why isn't it deeply offensive for you to want to slow them down if the reverse is true?
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Because in kindergarten I was regularly asked to go hang out by myself as literally every other student in the room learned to read. When they gave me the tests they use to measure themselves I got 99th percentile scores so literally neglecting me got them the metric as doing anything for me.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    Yeah, I get the general idea. I, like most HN readers likely were, was in a similar situation. And as a certified smart guy I now ask myself and others questions like: Why is it deeply offensive to hold you back when you are literally suggesting to hold them back instead?
    - colechristensen 5y ago
      Because there is a distinct bias against students who understand the material who get ignored in favor of students who don't Having a bit of talent hides what you actually need which tends to get ignored because you're better at figuring things out.

nostromo 5y ago

In some places in the US it may be a funding issue, but in most places it’s not. Take Baltimore for example. The public schools are very well-funded by any standard. And yet they have several high schools that didn’t produce a single student proficient in math. https://www.k12dive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-report-0-students-proficient-in-math-reading/443155/ https://www.k12dive.com/news/several-baltimore-schools-repor...

credit_guy 5y ago

Take New York City (which I'm familiar with, but it's likely the story is similar in many other places): - each public school has the same budget per student. There is no "reduced education funding" for schools in district X vs district Y, or for any school, because the budget per student is equal. Each school's budget is public, and published on the web. - favoring religious teaching: at least at the school my kids go to there's absolutely no religious teaching. I suspect this is the case for all the public schools in NYC - nuanced policy difficulties? Not sure what you mean by this Ok, now to answer your original question: why the fault of progressive left. As you see I skipped the word "extreme", as this is a loaded word; people who vote that way certainly do not perceive themselves as extreme. At the recent mayoral primaries, the top candidates were the moderates Eric Adams and Kathryn Garcia (1st and 2nd place), and the progressive Maya Wiley (3rd place). As far as the education was concerned, the hot topic was the selective "specialized high schools" [1], where the admission is test-based, according to a state law passed about 50 years ago. The current mayor (Bill de Blasio, progressive) has worked tirelessly for the last 4 years or so to lobby the State legislature to get the law repealed. The progressive candidate, Maya Wiley, promised to work towards the same goal. Here's the relevant extract from her platform [2] >> To remove barriers that separate and label children, we will: [...] Eliminate discriminatory admissions “screens.” In other words, kill the specialized high schools program. Eric Adams (the winner, moderate) promised to keep the program as it currently is. In case you wonder what the admission entrance exam is like, it's just two separate tests, one for ELA and one for math. Both tests are fairly challenging. The progressives think that these tests (and especially the math one) are discriminatory in nature. Here's a sample math question [3, p.78] "In Centerville, 45% of the population is female, and 60% of the population commutes to work daily. Of the total Centerville population, 21% are females who commute to work daily. What percentage of the total Centerville population are males who do not commute to work daily?" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_high_schools_in_New_York_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specialized_high_schools_in_Ne... [2] https://www.mayawileyformayor.com/maya-wileys-plan-for-creating-a-just-vibrant-school-system/ https://www.mayawileyformayor.com/maya-wileys-plan-for-creat... [3] https://cdn-blob-prd.azureedge.net/prd-pws/docs/default-source/default-document-library/2022-shsat-sample-test-a-and-explanations.pdf https://cdn-blob-prd.azureedge.net/prd-pws/docs/default-sour...

5y ago

arthur_sav 5y ago

I don't think there's a single country that spends more on education than the US and yet here we are. IMO the prosperity of the US has made people entitled and it's easier to complain than to put in the work.