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This really is something Tim needs to address before he again stands on stage and give lip service to Privacy with a capital P. We also need hardball journalis

This really is something Tim needs to address before he again stands on stage and give lip service to Privacy with a capital P. We also need hardball journalists to start asking Tim these tough questions instead of fawning over AirPods And we need employees to start demanding this internally

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
KingOfCoders 5y ago
Marketing. Apple does not care about your privacy but your perception. The EFF cares about your privacy.
- consumer451 5y ago
  It's not just marketing. As I understand it, purporting to provide a public good can help in antitrust negotiations.
numpad0 5y ago
I think we are all throwing wrong questions at wrong entities. What we should ask is what the hell is going on and what is forcing everyone to implement backdoors in this organized manners.
- int_19h 5y ago
  You already know the answers, though. It's either "OMG terrorists!" or "OMG child porn!".
- jiocrag 5y ago
  China. Specifically, gradual capitulation to China. "Apple's earnings for Greater China in Q2 2021 were up 87.5% from this time last year, to $17.7 billion. During its latest earnings call, Apple has announced dramatically increased revenues from Greater China for the three months ending March, 2021." China has cracked down hard on domestic Internet companies over the past few weeks (deliberately crushing their tech stock market to rein in these companies and enforce governmental data surveillance/control). They're not going to leave Apple out. Apple literally cannot lose that market. Its market cap would be halved. Saying they're going after child abuse in the US using a new algorithm is the perfect cover for gradual entry into enabling mass surveillance for China. No one can argue with the child abuse use case, but there will be plenty of consternation when this is used to scan for messages critical of Xi and the boys.
  - randyrand 5y ago
    It’s really sad how right you are. Never admitted it to myself yet.
    - yarky 5y ago
      Why sad? It seems to me this is the only thing to expect from a for-profit corporation under these circumstances. I don't really see how anybody could expect something different, specially here.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        The coffee shop hacker culture belives there is such thing as good and bad companies, hence why Google has been able to fool them with "do no evil" crap.
        yarky 5y ago
        Believe != Reality. I still don't see the why though. It seems obvious to me that nothing is to be expected from corporations, other than a hopefully nice product at a reasonable price. Anything other than that sounds like wishful thinking to my ears, but I might be philosophically wrong.
        pjmlp 5y ago
        It is wishful thinking, yet you will find plenty of places arguing about company X "good", company Z "bad". Any good deeds a company happens to do, is for publicity and helping sales.
    - onethought 5y ago
      It's sad that you think they're right. Rather than asking evidence of such a bold claim.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    These new features both launch US-only, however.
- onethought 5y ago
  What's the backdoor that has been implemented?
Teever 5y ago
> This really is something Tim needs to address before he again stands on stage and give lip service to Privacy with a capital P. Cui bono? Why does Tim Cook need to address this? To benefit Apple shareholders? To assuage the doubts of Apple customers who bought the false claims that Apple has made regarding their respect for users privacy? Truth be told I don't think that Tim Cook as CEO of one of the richest and most powerful organizations in history needs to do anything because Apple has their customers by the balls. What are the few Apple users who even care about this issue going to do? Switch to Microsoft? Linux? Hah! Face it, Apple users have made their bed and now they have to lie in it. People have been warning them for years about the Faustian bargain that they were making and how it was corrosive to society to entrench an entity like Apple and now here we are.
- zepto 5y ago
  > false claims that Apple has made regarding their respect for users privacy What false claim have they made?
  - Teever 5y ago
    Every claim that Apple makes about respecting user privacy is false because Apple does not allow users the means to independently verify the claims made by Apple regarding security. Additionally Apple does not allow users the means t control the hardware that they purchase by for instance, installing whatever software that they want on their devices.
    - zepto 5y ago
      You say ‘every claim’. I’m asking which claims. Can you find one?
      - hsorbo 5y ago
        https://www.macworld.com/article/232305/apple-privacy-billboard.html https://www.macworld.com/article/232305/apple-privacy-billbo...
busymom0 5y ago
> And we need employees to start demanding this internally If anything, this is the only thing which can actually get Apple to reverse their moves. Similar to what happened to Google.
brandon272 5y ago
As I've mentioned in another thread, Apple has been marketing itself so strongly as the leader in privacy that it now speaks about how it now treats privacy as a "fundamental human right". Their executives started using this phrasing when discussing privacy. It is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary commitment and action. To me, at least, that means privacy without compromise - and for everyone. ("Fundamental human rights" apply to all of us, right?) Privacy with a bunch of disclaimers attached to it indicating all of the conditions under which your privacy will be abridged is not privacy. And it's certainly not the behaviour of a company that treats privacy as a "fundamental human right". Apple needs to get a grip when it comes to dealing with and living up to this self-stated core value. I think that given the waves created by this CSAM on-device hash checking announcement and the questions many have about how to square this with their privacy talk, Apple's executives should say something and they should be unequivocal in what they say.
charbonneau 5y ago
Apple is doing the right thing. About 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 13 boys experience child sexual abuse in the US at some point in childhood (underreported) [1]. What's more important? Your right to "privacy" (which you can still invoke by simply not using iCloud) or their right to a normal life? And yes, their CSAM detection has lots of false-positives, but it will evolve. It will be doubleplusgood. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fastfact.html https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fast...
- Dah00n 5y ago
  >What's more important? Your right to "privacy" (which you can still invoke by simply not using iCloud) or their right to a normal life? My right to privacy of course because the other option is a strawman. What you are doing is the typical slippery slope of selling out something for everyone because of a small minority of criminals. "Should criminal Mr. X be allowed to do Bad-Thing-At-Level-10 to Small-Amount or should we do Bad-Thing-At-Level-1 to Everyone?" None of these are correct. Both are or should be illegal. Did you look into this? Because those who know how this system work says that not only will Apple's system not work it is also clearly illegal: https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Bad-Apple.html https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-On... This is getting rolled out in the US, with one of (if not the) biggest populations of innocent people being put in prison in the western world. Where mass-surveillance is, well, massive. If this hasn't specifically been made to be abused as a backdoor it will quickly any way.
  - charbonneau 5y ago
    25% of all girls (officially). That's not a small minority of criminals, that's a national tragedy. Americans must use every legal and constitutional tool in their arsenal to fight abuse and protect their children. The numbers make clear that the old rules no longer work. And it's "clearly illegal" because of... what? Because his (unnamed) attorney claims it's a felony? What if a different attorney claims it's perfectly legal? It's just a CSAM detector for content you upload to iCloud. We're willing to shut down schools and shops to save lives but if there's a theoretical .000001% chance that some rando might look at my beach photos, it's suddenly mass-surveillance backdoor China stuff? Come on. We live in a society.
rasz 5y ago
Why? They keep claiming being earth loving green hippies while mandating shredding of perfectly repairable/reusable products. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBqSOA9wRPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBqSOA9wRPk Doesnt seem to bother too many of their clients.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

KingOfCoders 5y ago

Marketing. Apple does not care about your privacy but your perception. The EFF cares about your privacy.

consumer451 5y ago
It's not just marketing. As I understand it, purporting to provide a public good can help in antitrust negotiations.

numpad0 5y ago

I think we are all throwing wrong questions at wrong entities. What we should ask is what the hell is going on and what is forcing everyone to implement backdoors in this organized manners.

int_19h 5y ago
You already know the answers, though. It's either "OMG terrorists!" or "OMG child porn!".
jiocrag 5y ago
China. Specifically, gradual capitulation to China. "Apple's earnings for Greater China in Q2 2021 were up 87.5% from this time last year, to $17.7 billion. During its latest earnings call, Apple has announced dramatically increased revenues from Greater China for the three months ending March, 2021." China has cracked down hard on domestic Internet companies over the past few weeks (deliberately crushing their tech stock market to rein in these companies and enforce governmental data surveillance/control). They're not going to leave Apple out. Apple literally cannot lose that market. Its market cap would be halved. Saying they're going after child abuse in the US using a new algorithm is the perfect cover for gradual entry into enabling mass surveillance for China. No one can argue with the child abuse use case, but there will be plenty of consternation when this is used to scan for messages critical of Xi and the boys.
- randyrand 5y ago
  It’s really sad how right you are. Never admitted it to myself yet.
  - yarky 5y ago
    Why sad? It seems to me this is the only thing to expect from a for-profit corporation under these circumstances. I don't really see how anybody could expect something different, specially here.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      The coffee shop hacker culture belives there is such thing as good and bad companies, hence why Google has been able to fool them with "do no evil" crap.
      - yarky 5y ago
        Believe != Reality. I still don't see the why though. It seems obvious to me that nothing is to be expected from corporations, other than a hopefully nice product at a reasonable price. Anything other than that sounds like wishful thinking to my ears, but I might be philosophically wrong.
        pjmlp 5y ago
        It is wishful thinking, yet you will find plenty of places arguing about company X "good", company Z "bad". Any good deeds a company happens to do, is for publicity and helping sales.
  - onethought 5y ago
    It's sad that you think they're right. Rather than asking evidence of such a bold claim.
- dwaite 5y ago
  These new features both launch US-only, however.
onethought 5y ago
What's the backdoor that has been implemented?

Teever 5y ago

> This really is something Tim needs to address before he again stands on stage and give lip service to Privacy with a capital P. Cui bono? Why does Tim Cook need to address this? To benefit Apple shareholders? To assuage the doubts of Apple customers who bought the false claims that Apple has made regarding their respect for users privacy? Truth be told I don't think that Tim Cook as CEO of one of the richest and most powerful organizations in history needs to do anything because Apple has their customers by the balls. What are the few Apple users who even care about this issue going to do? Switch to Microsoft? Linux? Hah! Face it, Apple users have made their bed and now they have to lie in it. People have been warning them for years about the Faustian bargain that they were making and how it was corrosive to society to entrench an entity like Apple and now here we are.

zepto 5y ago
> false claims that Apple has made regarding their respect for users privacy What false claim have they made?
- Teever 5y ago
  Every claim that Apple makes about respecting user privacy is false because Apple does not allow users the means to independently verify the claims made by Apple regarding security. Additionally Apple does not allow users the means t control the hardware that they purchase by for instance, installing whatever software that they want on their devices.
  - zepto 5y ago
    You say ‘every claim’. I’m asking which claims. Can you find one?
    - hsorbo 5y ago
      https://www.macworld.com/article/232305/apple-privacy-billboard.html https://www.macworld.com/article/232305/apple-privacy-billbo...

busymom0 5y ago

> And we need employees to start demanding this internally If anything, this is the only thing which can actually get Apple to reverse their moves. Similar to what happened to Google.

brandon272 5y ago

As I've mentioned in another thread, Apple has been marketing itself so strongly as the leader in privacy that it now speaks about how it now treats privacy as a "fundamental human right". Their executives started using this phrasing when discussing privacy. It is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary commitment and action. To me, at least, that means privacy without compromise - and for everyone. ("Fundamental human rights" apply to all of us, right?) Privacy with a bunch of disclaimers attached to it indicating all of the conditions under which your privacy will be abridged is not privacy. And it's certainly not the behaviour of a company that treats privacy as a "fundamental human right". Apple needs to get a grip when it comes to dealing with and living up to this self-stated core value. I think that given the waves created by this CSAM on-device hash checking announcement and the questions many have about how to square this with their privacy talk, Apple's executives should say something and they should be unequivocal in what they say.

charbonneau 5y ago

Apple is doing the right thing. About 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 13 boys experience child sexual abuse in the US at some point in childhood (underreported) [1]. What's more important? Your right to "privacy" (which you can still invoke by simply not using iCloud) or their right to a normal life? And yes, their CSAM detection has lots of false-positives, but it will evolve. It will be doubleplusgood. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fastfact.html https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childsexualabuse/fast...

Dah00n 5y ago
>What's more important? Your right to "privacy" (which you can still invoke by simply not using iCloud) or their right to a normal life? My right to privacy of course because the other option is a strawman. What you are doing is the typical slippery slope of selling out something for everyone because of a small minority of criminals. "Should criminal Mr. X be allowed to do Bad-Thing-At-Level-10 to Small-Amount or should we do Bad-Thing-At-Level-1 to Everyone?" None of these are correct. Both are or should be illegal. Did you look into this? Because those who know how this system work says that not only will Apple's system not work it is also clearly illegal: https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Bad-Apple.html https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-On... This is getting rolled out in the US, with one of (if not the) biggest populations of innocent people being put in prison in the western world. Where mass-surveillance is, well, massive. If this hasn't specifically been made to be abused as a backdoor it will quickly any way.
- charbonneau 5y ago
  25% of all girls (officially). That's not a small minority of criminals, that's a national tragedy. Americans must use every legal and constitutional tool in their arsenal to fight abuse and protect their children. The numbers make clear that the old rules no longer work. And it's "clearly illegal" because of... what? Because his (unnamed) attorney claims it's a felony? What if a different attorney claims it's perfectly legal? It's just a CSAM detector for content you upload to iCloud. We're willing to shut down schools and shops to save lives but if there's a theoretical .000001% chance that some rando might look at my beach photos, it's suddenly mass-surveillance backdoor China stuff? Come on. We live in a society.

rasz 5y ago

Why? They keep claiming being earth loving green hippies while mandating shredding of perfectly repairable/reusable products. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBqSOA9wRPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBqSOA9wRPk Doesnt seem to bother too many of their clients.